The resurrection of Jesus is fact

Manfred

Well-known member
why does an all-powerful, all-loving God allow kids to die of cancer?
Okay, so far so good. We have a God who wants to ..
Your depravity
So God created us, and we have a sinful nature. I mean, every single one of us is so full of sin that we all need saving, we all deserve to get tortured in hell. The implication here is that God messed up when he created us. Or set the bar to high.
Yes. Are you not convicted of your sin. Are you happy with the hurt caused you or by the hurt you may have caused.
The bar was merely to not rebel against Him. He is Holy
Man rebelled. You are in rebellion to God (Even if you think He does not exist)
Seriously, if you have a school where every child fails everything, the fault ...
No. Why are you unable to just do good?
God gives you the opportunity to try. He has given you the lesson. He is even willing to be with you and give you the answers for your exam.
He will not force you to ask Him, or to search. That is all you.

I have a friend who is a school teacher. She tells the kids while giving them class which questions will be in the exam, and ALL failed the exam.
Not her fault.

You are still trying to make God culpable.
1. I am dubious you can call an automaton a slave. I think the point about slaves is that they do have free will, but cannot exercise it. Does anyone think it immoral to have a computer? Does anyone regard their computer as a slave...
Your computer goes to a porn site if you direct it to go there. God does not direct you to a porn site.
It is you who would WANT to go there for your own satisfaction (Example only)

Lets use a more human example:
A young woman gets a letter from a secret admirer. She is flattered at first, but she is unable to track this person down. She then becomes alarmed because the admirer turns into a stalker, who eventually takes her against her will and forces her to love him.

God does not work like that. He does not force Himself on anyone. He does allow circumstances whereby it is possible for EVERY person to deny self, and depend on Him.

The thing that prevents all people from not believing in God is their own pride and clinging on to self. People refuse to be in submission, because that may make you a slave. Yet they have become a slave to sin, obeying their master at every turn.
Sin is enjoyable, otherwise we would not sin. Not everything that is enjoyable is sin, but all those little things we so in the dark
2. What is it like in heaven? Are people free to sin? Or are they automata? Or could there be a third option?
I cannot say exactly what it will be like in heaven. The bible mentions the following:
Heaven is a real place described in the Bible. The word “heaven” is found 276 times in the New Testament alone. Scripture refers to three heavens. The apostle Paul was “caught up to the third heaven,” but he was prohibited from revealing what he experienced there (2 Corinthians 12:1-9).
If a third heaven exists, there must also be two other heavens. The first is most frequently referred to in the Old Testament as the “sky” or the “firmament.” This is the heaven that contains clouds, the area that birds fly through. The second heaven is interstellar/outer space, which is the abode of the stars, planets, and other celestial objects (Genesis 1:14-18).
The third heaven, the location of which is not revealed, is the dwelling place of God. Jesus promised to prepare a place for true Christians in heaven (John 14:2). Heaven is also the destination of Old Testament saints who died trusting God’s promise of the Redeemer (Ephesians 4:8). Whoever believes in Christ shall never perish but have eternal life (John 3:16).
The apostle John was privileged to see and report on the heavenly city (Revelation 21:10-27). John witnessed that heaven (the new earth) possesses the “glory of God” (Revelation 21:11), the very presence of God. Because heaven has no night and the Lord Himself is the light, the sun and moon are no longer needed (Revelation 22:5).
The city is filled with the brilliance of costly stones and crystal clear jasper. Heaven has twelve gates (Revelation 21:12) and twelve foundations (Revelation 21:14). The paradise of the Garden of Eden is restored: the river of the water of life flows freely and the tree of life is available once again, yielding fruit monthly with leaves that “heal the nations” (Revelation 22:1-2). However eloquent John was in his description of heaven, the reality of heaven is beyond the ability of finite man to describe (1 Corinthians 2:9).
Heaven is a place of “no mores.” There will be no more tears, no more pain, and no more sorrow (Revelation 21:4). There will be no more separation, because death will be conquered (Revelation 20:6). The best thing about heaven is the presence of our Lord and Savior (1 John 3:2). We will be face to face with the Lamb of God who loved us and sacrificed Himself so that we can enjoy His presence in heaven for eternity.

As to whether or not people are free to sin in heaven, you have to understand salvation.
Let me put it this way: God is light and in Him there is no darkness. When you are saved, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to you.
Darkness cannot enter Light. It cannot exist in light. That is why the unrighteous cannot be reconciled to God.
With the imputed righteousness of Christ, there will no longer be temptation, as He was tempted in every way and never gave in to temptation.
3. Also, Lev 25 makes it clear ...
That would be your interpretation again.
God allowed it. Man was going to do it with or without God's permission. God gave man the Law not because it is His perfect standard, but rather attainable by man.
8Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, ....

What is this saying: It says that the law was given not to a just people, but rather to lawless and disobedient people, for the ungodly and for sinners.
He then lists the type of people which includes enslavers.
They will be judged against the moral law given regarding slavery.

It is not that difficult to understand if you gave a real interest.
4. And that brings to what is moral anyway. If God really is the source of morality as Christians usually claim then if God kept automata...
Already addressed.
Even in heaven you will not be an automaton. How just would it be if God interjected in your every move and stopped you from doing that which your heart wants to do.
Taking that freedom away is the highest form of slavery, but you seem to have no problem with a just god somehow doing that.
That is a great argument.
But incompatible with the claim that God loves us.

Either you can say: We are like ants or even germs to him, and what does he care about our petty lives? Or you can say: He is a personal God who loves each and every one of us individually. You do not get to flip between two disparate concepts of God ...
So what do you think He is like? Of course He is personal and desires a relationship with you.
You do not hold a desire to be in relationship with God. He leaves you to what you want, He does not force Himself onto you.
The reason we will not believe is that .....
I am not worthy to try and make and excuse for God... By definition, I would be an imbecile. Do you think I can for one second determine all that God has in plan for 7 Billion people living today.
What interactions are there. People scream and shout at each other every day. There are tears and laughter. People get robbed and we continue life in this fallen world.
I have a hope that you do not have. It is the same rain that falls on both of us, yet I have a sure and steadfast hope, and you are left with nothing.
The Bible in that verse you quote is implicitly acknowledging that people have been saying it makes no sense for the best part of 2000 years. Christians have been using the same arguments all that time...
What insults? Is it insulting for me to say you are biased in your view.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Imagine a ten year old girl in hospital, dying of cancer. Are Christians really saying that that is a better world than where she has no cancer, and is outside playing with her friends?
See above. How do you know she will not have more and nicer friends for all eternity.
You think her childhood trumps eternity in the presence of God's love.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Thank you for confirming what I said.

You have no interest in responding to anything I wrote.

You want me to post on the moral argument.
Why not be honest and challenge what I wrote.
I did address why God allows sickness. You just have no answer so you generalize.

Typical
This thread is about facts - the fact of the Crucifixion. When you present facts I'll be more interested.

And you have absolutely not explained why it is loving to give kids bone cancer because there is no way to make that an act of love. Can you imagine giving your child cancer when there was no need? Can you imagine withholding the cure for cancer from you child when you could make them well?

Madness. You are trying to make something cruel into something good. It cannot work. But your need to try is fascinating.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Thank you for confirming what I said.

You have no interest in responding to anything I wrote.

You want me to post on the moral argument.
Why not be honest and challenge what I wrote.
I did address why God allows sickness. You just have no answer so you generalize.

Typical
You did not address it. All you did was brush off the question with the following:

"God, being God does deserve all glory. What you see as a god not preventing a tsunami or cancer is small minded indeed. God is SO much bigger than our little problems and quirks. The end of our wisdom is not even the beginning of God's wisdom, and you a mere man that was created by a creator think you can tell God what is what?"

The affective answer above is that you don't know because God is too big for us to know. So what good is a lesson we don't understand? How do those glorify God if it is supposed to be us that glorifies Him?
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
You did not address it. All you did was brush off the question with the following:

"God, being God does deserve all glory. What you see as a god not preventing a tsunami or cancer is small minded indeed. God is SO much bigger than our little problems and quirks. The end of our wisdom is not even the beginning of God's wisdom, and you a mere man that was created by a creator think you can tell God what is what?"

The affective answer above is that you don't know because God is too big for us to know. So what good is a lesson we don't understand? How do those glorify God if it is supposed to be us that glorifies Him?
Why? Why is it impossible for Christians to say "I have no evidence."? Why do they keep spewing things they know are not evidence? Do they hope to distract? To wear us down?

Its amazing to watch.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Why? Why is it impossible for Christians to say "I have no evidence."? Why do they keep spewing things they know are not evidence? Do they hope to distract? To wear us down?

Its amazing to watch.
I know. Still no explanation on how gratuitous suffering exalts God or proves love. His love is instead proven via how He saves us from sin, which is not a compensation for gratuitous suffering for even the healthy sin and are saved. Non-sequitur
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
I know. Still no explanation on how gratuitous suffering exalts God or proves love. His love is instead proven via how He saves us from sin, which is not a compensation for gratuitous suffering for even the healthy sin and are saved. Non-sequitur
I agree. There is no way to complete the sentence, "Giving bone cancer to a child is loving because..."

And yet they continue to try.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Your depravity
What "depravity"? You do not know me at all, yet you assume I am depraved. Is this just the usual Christian bigotry? I am not a Christian, therefore I must be depraved?

Yes. Are you not convicted of your sin. Are you happy with the hurt caused you or by the hurt you may have caused.
The bar was merely to not rebel against Him. He is Holy
Man rebelled. You are in rebellion to God (Even if you think He does not exist)
Adam supposedly rebelled 6000 years ago by eating fruit he was told not to. Is God still sulking? He is letting kids die of cancer because of something done hundred of generations ago? Is that what counts as justice?

Oh, apparently he is angry at ME for not believing he exists! He could prove he exists, but no, apparently your God would rather kids die of cancer. Is that what counts as justice?

You spent a good chunk of the post I was replying to saying how God is love. Do you honestly think either of these positions is consistent with that?

No. Why are you unable to just do good?
God gives you the opportunity to try. He has given you the lesson. He is even willing to be with you and give you the answers for your exam.
He will not force you to ask Him, or to search. That is all you.
I think you missed the analogy. God is analogous to the whole school, a school where every student fails. When every student fails, the blame lies with the school. When every person God has created fails, the blame lies with God.

I have a friend who is a school teacher. She tells the kids while giving them class which questions will be in the exam, and ALL failed the exam.
Not her fault.
Have all the kids she has ever taught failed? If so, she is a bad teacher and should find another job. I would guess, however, that this was a one-off.

You are still trying to make God culpable.
Correct.

Your computer goes to a porn site if you direct it to go there. God does not direct you to a porn site.
It is you who would WANT to go there for your own satisfaction (Example only)
Computers will always go to the web site they are told to do so. They are built that way.

Humans will always sin. They are built that way.

Lets use a more human example:
A young woman gets a letter from a secret admirer. She is flattered at first, but she is unable to track this person down. She then becomes alarmed because the admirer turns into a stalker, who eventually takes her against her will and forces her to love him.

God does not work like that. He does not force Himself on anyone. He does allow circumstances whereby it is possible for EVERY person to deny self, and depend on Him.
He does not force you to love him... But he will torture for ever in hell if you choose not to.

Which is better? I think the stalker.

The thing that prevents all people from not believing in God is their own pride and clinging on to self.
No it really is not.

The thing that prevents people believing in God is the evidence.

The primary reason people become Christians is they were conditioned to believe the Bible is true as children. The vast majority of Christians have Christian parents. Meanwhile, Muslim families condition their kids to think Islam is true, Hindu parents that Hinduism is true.

This conveniently bypasses the need for evidence - other than; it says it in the Bible.

I cannot say exactly what it will be like in heaven. The bible mentions the following:
I will get to this later, when you do give an answer.

That would be your interpretation again.
God allowed it. ...
So we agree. God allows slavery. It is as simple as that.

Except Christians have relatively recently decided that actually slavery is wrong, so now have to rationalise those verses.

... Man was going to do it with or without God's permission. God gave man the Law not because it is His perfect standard, but rather attainable by man.
The Bible is clear that Hebrew slaves are to be well treated, but gentile slaves can be treated severely and treated as property. Why did God draw a distinction? Why did he not choose to say all slaves should be treated decently? That would be far more moral.

Man is going to commit adultery with or without God's permission, but God still made clear that that was prohibited.

The OT is clear that chattel slavery for gentiles is acceptable.

Already addressed.
Even in heaven you will not be an automaton. How just would it be if God interjected in your every move and stopped you from doing that which your heart wants to do.
So we have free will on earth and we have free will in heaven. On earth kids die of cancer, in heaven they do not. Therefore free will is not the problem.

Taking that freedom away is the highest form of slavery, but you seem to have no problem with a just god somehow doing that.
Not sure where you get the idea I have no problem taking free will away.

So what do you think He is like? Of course He is personal and desires a relationship with you.
But not enough that he will stop children dying of cancer.

You do not hold a desire to be in relationship with God. He leaves you to what you want, He does not force Himself onto you.
And like a petulant kid, God therefore refuses to stop kids dying of cancer.

I am not worthy to try and make and excuse for God... By definition, I would be an imbecile. Do you think I can for one second determine all that God has in plan for 7 Billion people living today.
Christianity has had 2000 years to work that out - at least in broad terms. That is 2000 years with a God who is personal and they have a relationship with.

What interactions are there. People scream and shout at each other every day. There are tears and laughter. People get robbed and we continue life in this fallen world.
I have a hope that you do not have. It is the same rain that falls on both of us, yet I have a sure and steadfast hope, and you are left with nothing.
I would prefer reality to the delusion of false hope.

What insults? Is it insulting for me to say you are biased in your view.
I consider "you are nothing but foolish." to be an insult.

I consider "All you are left with is ugh, ugh, "God evil, no God ugh, ugh ugh" to be insulting. Why did you choose to use "ugh" there, if you were not trying to imply I am stupid? Have I misunderstood your intent? Do please clarify.

See above. How do you know she will not have more and nicer friends for all eternity.
You think her childhood trumps eternity in the presence of God's love.
We have no idea what eternity will be like. For all we know God plans to torture her in hell because she made the mistake of being born into a Muslim family.

What we do know is she is suffering and afraid for months on end, and God does nothing to stop that.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
Want something rich?

In the last verse of Genesis 6 days of Creation "It is finished"

In the Gospels on the Cross Jesus said "It is finished" Jesus is talking about the NEW creation. (old things have BECOME new)
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
Well, the Amish, who are more Christ-like than most "Christians" would disagree, and I do to. I think a Christian ought to follow in the example of their master and die for their enemies rather than kill them in self defense.
I suspect you do not know any Amish. You have never stayed in an Amish home. I have.

Amish are the 180 degree opposite of the Pagan atheeists. When a man shot up and killed some sweet little girls in a school Pennsylvania, the Amish forgave the killer.
Atheeists have zero comprehension of forgiveness. They are obsessed with accusations.
The people poured out sympathy to the Amish. ($$$$) The Amish families reached out and comforted the killer's widow and children. And shared money with the widow of the killer who now lost a bread winner.
 

sbell

Active member
I suspect you do not know any Amish. You have never stayed in an Amish home. I have.

Amish are the 180 degree opposite of the Pagan atheeists. When a man shot up and killed some sweet little girls in a school Pennsylvania, the Amish forgave the killer.
Atheeists have zero comprehension of forgiveness. They are obsessed with accusations.
The people poured out sympathy to the Amish. ($$$$) The Amish families reached out and comforted the killer's widow and children. And shared money with the widow of the killer who now lost a bread winner.
Hey man, do you read any of the post? From your responses, I don't suspect you do.

I know the story of the Amish forgiving the little girls killer. That story is the exact story I had in mind when I was using the Amish as an example. I think it's beautiful and lovely. I wish the world had more people who where as radical as the Amish. I wish I was as forgiving and generous as the Amish. The post was about how the Amish disagree with most Christians' belief in their right to self defense and violence, and I think the Amish are trying their best to actually live out the teachings of Jesus. If more Christian's were as intentional as the Amish with radically living out Jesus' message, I'm convinced we'd live in a very different, and better world. I don't think most Christians are really concerned with following Jesus, and just don't want to burn in hell, so they say their sinner's prayer, and now they're saved, and then they go on living just like the vast majority of the people in their culture. I don't think they actually believe Jesus, and their lives reflect that. At least the Amish actually believe him and are seeking to shape their lives around what he preached.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
imagine giving your child cancer when there was no need
Imagine my kid who died of Cancer being free of the pain in this world and with God where we would be reunited for eternity.

So much more to look forward too.

You have NO hope. Banging your head against an invisible wall of your own making.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Then why aren't you pro-abortion?
What a simplistic assertion.

Why don't you think a bit deeper than that.
It is not moral to kill babies because you wanted to have a bit of fun in the sack. It is about you and the baby whose life YOU take.

You are much too obsessed with not having to face responsibility
 

Manfred

Well-known member
So objective, honest assessments are just "opinions" to you?
Objective honest assessment?

Lol
ugh, ugh, ugh, kids cancer, no god, evil god, ugh, ugh ugh

If that is your objective, honest assessment then don't worry, be happy....
 

Manfred

Well-known member
What "depravity"? You do not know me at all, yet you assume I am depraved. Is this just the usual Christian bigotry? I am not a Christian, therefore I must be depraved?
You think you are perfectly righteous?
Is this normal for atheists to believe themselves to be righteous?
Adam supposedly rebelled 6000 years ago by eating fruit he was told not to. Is God still sulking? He is letting kids die of cancer because of something done hundred of generations ago? Is that what counts as justice?
ugh, ugh, god sulks 6000 years, ugh ugh

I didn't even bother to read the rest
Oh, apparently he is angry at ME for not believing he exists! He could prove he exists, but no, apparently your God would rather kids die of cancer. Is that what counts as justice?

You spent a good chunk of the post I was replying to saying how God is love. Do you honestly think either of these positions is consistent with that?


I think you missed the analogy. God is analogous to the whole school, a school where every student fails. When every student fails, the blame lies with the school. When every person God has created fails, the blame lies with God.


Have all the kids she has ever taught failed? If so, she is a bad teacher and should find another job. I would guess, however, that this was a one-off.


Correct.


Computers will always go to the web site they are told to do so. They are built that way.

Humans will always sin. They are built that way.


He does not force you to love him... But he will torture for ever in hell if you choose not to.

Which is better? I think the stalker.


No it really is not.

The thing that prevents people believing in God is the evidence.

The primary reason people become Christians is they were conditioned to believe the Bible is true as children. The vast majority of Christians have Christian parents. Meanwhile, Muslim families condition their kids to think Islam is true, Hindu parents that Hinduism is true.

This conveniently bypasses the need for evidence - other than; it says it in the Bible.


I will get to this later, when you do give an answer.


So we agree. God allows slavery. It is as simple as that.

Except Christians have relatively recently decided that actually slavery is wrong, so now have to rationalise those verses.


The Bible is clear that Hebrew slaves are to be well treated, but gentile slaves can be treated severely and treated as property. Why did God draw a distinction? Why did he not choose to say all slaves should be treated decently? That would be far more moral.

Man is going to commit adultery with or without God's permission, but God still made clear that that was prohibited.

The OT is clear that chattel slavery for gentiles is acceptable.


So we have free will on earth and we have free will in heaven. On earth kids die of cancer, in heaven they do not. Therefore free will is not the problem.


Not sure where you get the idea I have no problem taking free will away.


But not enough that he will stop children dying of cancer.


And like a petulant kid, God therefore refuses to stop kids dying of cancer.


Christianity has had 2000 years to work that out - at least in broad terms. That is 2000 years with a God who is personal and they have a relationship with.


I would prefer reality to the delusion of false hope.


I consider "you are nothing but foolish." to be an insult.

I consider "All you are left with is ugh, ugh, "God evil, no God ugh, ugh ugh" to be insulting. Why did you choose to use "ugh" there, if you were not trying to imply I am stupid? Have I misunderstood your intent? Do please clarify.


We have no idea what eternity will be like. For all we know God plans to torture her in hell because she made the mistake of being born into a Muslim family.

What we do know is she is suffering and afraid for months on end, and God does nothing to stop that.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Imagine my kid who died of Cancer being free of the pain in this world and with God where we would be reunited for eternity.

So much more to look forward too.

You have NO hope. Banging your head against an invisible wall of your own making.
Do all kids automatically go to heaven? What about kids raised in a Muslim family, will they go to heaven?

If you answer yes: That means there is a point in the kid's life when if she dies before that moment he automatically goes to heaven, and if she dies after that moment, she goes to hell - given she was raised as a Muslim. And therefore whether she goes to heaven or hell depends on how old she was when she died. Is that right?

If you answer no: That means God allowing a kid to die of cancer is sending that kid to hell even soon, giving her less opportunity to repent and avoid that fate. Is that right?
 
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