The resurrection of Jesus is fact

The Pixie

Well-known member
You think you are perfectly righteous?
Is this normal for atheists to believe themselves to be righteous?
Are those the only two options? Either "perfectly righteous" or depravity?

Which are you? How about your wife? Your kids? Are they "perfectly righteous" or depraved?

To answer your question, I do not consider myself to be either depraved nor perfectly righteous. Further, I am pretty sure you and your family are the same. It is normal for atheists to think the vast majority of people are not depraved and also are not perfectly righteous.

ugh, ugh, god sulks 6000 years, ugh ugh
And there you go with the insult, making out that I am stupid. At least this time you have the decency to stop pretending you are not doing it.

You could try addressing the point. Fundamental Christianity claims all the suffering in the world is due to the fall, which in turn is due to God choosing to punish Adam for a single act of disobedience. You do not like me characterising it as "sulking"? How about throwing a temper tantrum?

I cannot see how you can look at it any other way. If kids die of cancer today because God got angry at Adam 6000 years ago, that is a very petty - and frankly nasty - God.

And the point here is not that God should do as I say, but that a petty, nasty God is the exact opposite of what Christians, including you a few posts back, say when they claim "God is Love".

I didn't even bother to read the rest
Of course not!

Christianity has no answer, so Christians do the only thing they can. Ignore it, and hope it will go away.

If that works for you, then great. But for every non-Christian everywhere we can see the huge contradiction inherent in your religion, and to us it just looks like incoherent nonsense.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
If you answer no: That means God allowing a kid to die of cancer is sending that kid to hell even soon, giving her less opportunity to repent and avoid that fate. Is that right?
Less opportunity to repent?

Your idea of God is so limited.
Why do you need all your life to repent?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
Are those the only two options? Either "perfectly righteous" or depravity?

Which are you? How about your wife? Your kids? Are they "perfectly righteous" or depraved?
They have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them.
Christ is the propitiation for our sin.
When your questions start getting a bit more thoughtful it may become clearer what we actually believe.
We repented before the ultimate judge.
To answer your question, I do not consider myself to be either depraved nor perfectly righteous. Further, I am pretty sure you and your family are the same. It is normal for atheists to think the vast majority of people are not depraved and also are not perfectly righteous.
There is no one who is righteous.
Christians unlike ALL other world religions do not think we are saved by our righteousness, but by that of Christ.
And there you go with the insult, making out that I am stupid. At least this time you have the decency to stop pretending you are not doing it.
And? You keep building strawmen that you expect me to break down.
God does not sulk for 6000 years. The concept of God should have given you a hint.

Something happened when man gained knowledge of good and evil. They chose to do it.
At some point in your life you chose to sin. No one forced you.

Why is God guilty?
I cannot see how you can look at it any other way. If kids die of cancer today because God got angry at Adam 6000 years ago, that is a very petty - and frankly nasty - God.
God got angry at Adam.... You keep building these silly straw men arguments.
Prior to Adam who was not an automaton, choosing to rebel against God, He had no clue of what either right or wrong was. He heard God and followed God.

He was told what the consequence would be of living without God.

And again, God is somehow guilty of not making him an automaton....
 

Bob1

Well-known member
Objective honest assessment?

Lol
ugh, ugh, ugh, kids cancer, no god, evil god, ugh, ugh ugh

If that is your objective, honest assessment then don't worry, be happy....
So then, objective honest assessments ARE "opinions" to you. Thanks for the clarification.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
Imagine my kid who died of Cancer being free of the pain in this world and with God where we would be reunited for eternity.

So much more to look forward too.

You have NO hope. Banging your head against an invisible wall of your own making.
Needing to believe something is not a great reason to believe it. I understand people need to believe that their loved ones are in a better place.

When my Hindu friends lost a loved one they took solace in the belief their sister was not in pain and was with Lord Brahma and they would reunite in eternity. My Pagan friends believe their loved ones are no longer in pain and have returned to The Earth Mother where they will reunite in eternity. Taoists believe we all become one with the force of life in eternity and are in no pain. Scientologists believe when a loved one dies they are no longer in pain and their soul goes to a landing station on Venus where they will be reunited in eternity.

It is a universal need. And I understand the need for those beliefs to cope with unimaginable loss. I am sure your belief is great comfort to you as my friends belief in Venus is a comfort to them.

I am not trying to take that from you - I am glad you have that belief and comfort. But understand that there is no real logical, compelling reason to believe it other than a pure human need to cope with tragedy.

We just explained religion :)
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Less opportunity to repent?

Your idea of God is so limited.
Why do you need all your life to repent?
It is not about how long it takes you to do the thing.

The longer the live, the more opportunity you have to do anything. If you die at nineteen you have much less opportunity to experience skydiving, to write a book, to get married than if you die at sixty. Repenting is just the same. If you die at nineteen you will have had much less opportunity to repent than if you die at sixty.

They have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them.
Wow, so you really do think you are perfectly righteous - even if it only borrowed.

And? You keep building strawmen that you expect me to break down.
God does not sulk for 6000 years. The concept of God should have given you a hint.
That is the point - that God sulking is at odds with the concept of God.

On the one hand we have this sullen, petulant, bad-tempered God, still upset that someone dared to disobey him 6000 years ago, and determined to make everyone suffer for it.

And on the other hand we have this "God is love" claim.

The two are entirely contradictory, and yet Christianity promotes both!

Something happened when man gained knowledge of good and evil. They chose to do it.
Get the order right. They chose to do it. Then they gained knowledge of good and evil.

So when they disobeyed God they did not really understand it was wrong - like a small child disobeying his parents. Well, if the parent then decided to throw the kid on the street and to abuse him, and all his descendants for the next 6000 years.

But of course, the parents epitomise love, right?

At some point in your life you chose to sin. No one forced you.
And yet we all do it. How many failures does it take before we blame the creator? There are seven billion people of the planet, and we are ALL failures.

Why is God guilty?
Because he set us up for failure.

Because he fails to live up to his own standard, specifically as forth in the parable of the Good Samaritan.

God got angry at Adam.... You keep building these silly straw men arguments.
Prior to Adam who was not an automaton, choosing to rebel against God, He had no clue of what either right or wrong was. He heard God and followed God.

He was told what the consequence would be of living without God.

And again, God is somehow guilty of not making him an automaton....
Why do I have to repeat this? We have been discuss God letting children die of cancer for countless posts now, and yet you still want to pretend this is about God not making Adam an automaton?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
So then, objective honest assessments ARE "opinions" to you. Thanks for the clarification.
Neither objective nor honest.

That was opinion only.
Try and give me an objective honest answer that does not read like this:
ugh, ugh, ugh, kids cancer, no god, evil god, ugh, ugh ugh
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Repentance does not depend on how long you live.
What a silly premise
I assume you did not actually read my post. I will try again.

A person who lives 80 years has eight times as much time to do stuff as someone who lives 10 years, and will therefore do eight times as much stuff (to an approximation at least).

Suppose a man repents when he is thirty. If he had dies at age ten, he would not have repented. He would have lost that opportunity to get to heaven.

I see you missed all the rest of the points in my post. I shall assume Christianity has no answer. The big one is the huge dichotomy between God letting kids die of cancer because someone who was unable to tell right from wrong disobeyed him 6000 years ago, verses the "God is love" claim. Maybe YOU need to get your head out of the sand and address this.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
I assume you did not actually read my post. I will try again.

A person who lives 80 years has eight times as much time to do stuff as someone who lives 10 years, and will therefore do eight times as much stuff (to an approximation at least).

Suppose a man repents when he is thirty. If he had dies at age ten, he would not have repented. He would have lost that opportunity to get to heaven.

I see you missed all the rest of the points in my post. I shall assume Christianity has no answer. The big one is the huge dichotomy between God letting kids die of cancer because someone who was unable to tell right from wrong disobeyed him 6000 years ago, verses the "God is love" claim. Maybe YOU need to get your head out of the sand and address this.
Your natural thinking is limited.
Repentance comes not from having a lifetime of experience, or a longer time to come to a realization.
When Spiritual revelation comes it has NOTHING to do with intellectual experience and is not dependent on time.
 

Lighthearted Atheist

Well-known member
False premise
Its my subjective opinion. I think you need to believe that God is real, that there is some kind of sense behind all of the suffering on Earth, and that one day it will all be explained as you live in paradise. I think that belief helps you cope with life's sorrow and pain - as it does for every Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Hindu. Billions have this need - not just you.

And I think the need is so powerful that is will override logic, reason, and any facts that counter this belief.

You can disagree - its just my opinion.
 

Bob1

Well-known member
Neither objective nor honest.

That was opinion only.
Try and give me an objective honest answer that does not read like this:
ugh, ugh, ugh, kids cancer, no god, evil god, ugh, ugh ugh
On the contrary, I was both objective and honest. But since it doesn't mesh with your narrative you claim it's "opinion".
 

5wize

Well-known member
What a simplistic assertion.

Why don't you think a bit deeper than that.
It is not moral to kill babies because you wanted to have a bit of fun in the sack. It is about you and the baby whose life YOU take.

You are much too obsessed with not having to face responsibility
"You think her childhood trumps eternity in the presence of God's love"


Not a lot of ways to read that.
 

The Pixie

Well-known member
Your natural thinking is limited.
Repentance comes not from having a lifetime of experience, or a longer time to come to a realization.
When Spiritual revelation comes it has NOTHING to do with intellectual experience and is not dependent on time.
The "When Spiritual revelation comes ... " bit sinks your argument. If it does not come before you die, it will never happen.

I note you still got no explanation as to how we can reconcile "God is love" with God letting kids die of cancer for something someone did 6000 years ago?

I guess not. And yet you still say to 5wize "You are much too obsessed with not having to face responsibility". When will God face responsibility for what he creates? Why is it moral to stand by and let them die? Why is it moral for God to torture most of them for eternity after they do die?
 

Manfred

Well-known member
The "When Spiritual revelation comes ... " bit sinks your argument. If it does not come before you die, it will never happen.
Correct.

Who do you think brings revelation?
Do you think He is limited by time?
You refuse to believe the revelation given. Do you expect Him to force you...
 

SteveB

Well-known member
You appeal to apologetics in an attempt to prove the existence of your god - here is a list of evidences he does not exist:-
1. All historical gods are known constructs.
Actually, I simply provide history, and present day political establishments or national boundaries.
I.e., the nation of Israel and the Jewish people, who both live in Israel and scattered throughout the world.


2. The futility of prayer - despite the bible promises.
Oh, I don't know. I have plenty of prayers which are answered, and have numerous friends and acquaintances who have received answers to their prayers.

3. Church offerings - why do we need them? (See Matt. 7v7; 17v20; 18v19; 21v21; Jn 14v12-14.
Mat 7:7 WEB “Ask, and it will be given you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened for you.
Mat 17:20 WEB He said to them, “Because of your unbelief. For most certainly I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will tell this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
Mat 18:19 WEB Again, assuredly I tell you, that if two of you will agree on earth concerning anything that they will ask, it will be done for them by my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 21:21 WEB Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, if you have faith and don’t doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you told this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ it would be done.
Joh 14:12-14 WEB 12 Most certainly I tell you, he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and he will do greater works than these, because I am going to my Father. 13 Whatever you will ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you will ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Are you sure that you placed these in the right place in trying to make a point?
What do these have to do with church offerings?

Did it ever occur to you that this is part of how God has chosen to provide for the needs of his people's church life, missions, and local outreach to the community?


4. There is no scientific evidence.
What do you mean? The repeatable approach, or the simple existence?

People from all over the world have been turning to Jesus for nearly 2 millennia. Sounds like scientific evidence to me.
The Jewish people have been in existence for the past 3800+/- years, so that too sounds like scientific evidence.
The modern political nation of Israel has been in existence since 1948. It was in existence until 135CE, when Hadrian wiped it off the map following the bar kochba revolt, and renamed it Palestine, as a slap in the face to the people of Israel.

5. Magic is attributed to gods.
Well, if you actually need slight of hand and optical illusion to justify your beliefs, then it seems to me that you are the one who believes in magic.
I never did. And I still don't believe in magic.
6. Jesus appeared to Paul to prove his reality - why not us?
I have a novel idea.
Go around murdering Jesus followers, drag them off to prison and then tell us what happens.

How do you know that Jesus hasn't appeared to us who follow Jesus, before we started following him?
I've repeatedly stated over the past 8+ years that I asked God if he was real and if the Jesus stuff I'd been hearing about was real or just another pile of religious bs and he answered me, so I chose to follow Jesus.
I've heard a variety of similarities in the stories of others who have come to follow Jesus across the past 44 years.


7. Thou shalt not kill - compare this commandment to Exodus Ch. 32.
Actually the commandment says you shall do no murder.

I'd encourage you to pay closer attention.

8. If it is true that all blessings come from god, then why do 10 million children starve to death each year?
Why indeed? Aren't you feeding them? You're obviously more righteous than all the others who have been involved in helping others, so perhaps the whole reason they're starving is because you aren't doing your part, and instead, are blaming God for your own narcissism.


9. If the bible is God's word, you cannot maintain that he wants to remain hidden - especially in light of the fact the bible is the most famous book ever written.
Ever wonder how so much soap can exist, while there are so many dirty people who never use it?
At what point did having access to soap mean that in order to become clean, each person must apply the soap to their own skin and then rinse, so they can receive the benefits of the soap?
Or did you think that soap will just jump on, and attack you, to force you to cleanse yourself?

From what I've read in the bible, several hundred times, each individual person must apply the gospel to their own lives in order to receive the benefits God has explicitly stated he would give.

As to why he remains "hidden" in light of the popularity of the bible, that too is plainly stated in the bible.
He's not interested in people being forced to bow in submission. He wants people who will freely love and honor him with their lives, of their own accord.

10. You cannot claim god always answers prayer then say that belief is all of faith.
I'm not seeing where I ever did. The bible clearly stated that he doesn't answer every single prayer. Otherwise the entire human race would have destroyed itself by now.

11. Psalm 139:16 - god planned abortions and death of babies and children.
Psa 139:16 WEB Your eyes saw my body. In your book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there were none of them.

Hmm...... 🤔
How does God seeing my body, writing them in his book, ordaining my days, before I existed make him the planner of abortions?

Seems like you're cherry picking to support your biases and preconceptions about God.

Jesus said that the thief comes only to steal kill and destroy, but he came to give us life, and that more abundantly.

We then read in Ecclesiastes about our responsibility for choosing what kind of life we want, and the consequences for choosing.

If we choose to live foolishly, we will die before our time. If we live overly righteously, we will destroy ourselves. Those who fear God will escape both extremes, and live a long life.

So, it seems to me that what you don't want to see is that God is not the one choosing, but it's we who choose, and can act on behalf of another, without their permission, and either help them experience a great life or steal their lives and prevent them from experiencing the life God has for them.
Another word for this is murder. Aka, abortion.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
Your natural thinking is limited.
Translation: "You wont accept my unsupported claims as absolute truth, so I will insult you to assuage my wounded pride."

Pretty standard Christian apologetic fare...

Your thinking is just as natural and as limited as his is.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
I've read John and Romans, so maybe I'm missing something, but if it's so clear, can you provide a little summary of what a relationship with the risen, still alive and active in the world today, Jesus of Nazareth looks like today.
It's outlined quite well in the two documents.
I think that there are many others contained in the bible that help further elucidate what following Jesus entails.

Paul tells us that we are saved by grace, through faith. Ephesians 2:8-9.
He tells Titus that Grace not only saves us, but also teaches us what we need to know in order to follow Jesus successfully. Titus 2:11-14.

Peter tells us that we will experience great success in following Jesus as we increase our knowledge of God and Jesus. He further noted that everything we need to know God and live a life of godliness is provided by God to us. He continues by stating that it's the promises of God which make us partakers of his divine nature and allow us to escape from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desires. He then states that we should give ourselves over to increasing specific attributes to our lives and that by doing so we will succeed in our lives as Jesus followers.
2 Peter 1:2-13.


Why the need for interaction with other Jesus followers. That makes you in a relationship with other followers, but he again is suspiciously absent.
Oh, he's present. Just not bodily as you think.
He's made it quite clear that wherever 2 or more are gathered in his name, he's in their midst.

I find that quite problematic. If all the people you hang around with think the same way you do, you guys aren't studying the Bible, you're studying your beliefs about the Bible.
Why?
Reading the words, in the order they're organized and in their arrangements can't be studying the bible?
I'm curious, have you ever taken a college course? Because in my (state run) college classes, we started reading books, and then we studied the materials in the same manner as we do the bible. I finished my studies with high marks, and a GPA in the mid-3's range. So, you're going to have to explain what you mean.

You can read the Bible for four hours a day every day and still not know what's in the Bible.
Only if you don't actually pay attention.

For example, did you know the Jews were not monotheist until very late in their history. They practiced monolatry.
Curious....who do you think the first Jew was?
Who was the first person to worship and serve YHVH? When did this "monolatry" take place?

Did you know Deuteronomy 32:8–9 was changed by later scribes, but the very clear implications of the earliest manuscripts is that there is a supreme deity name El Elyon, and he gave the nations to gods, and Yawhew was one of those gods, and his inheritance was Israel. See, if you don't study outside of your little cocoon, then you believe you know the Bible, but what you really know is your communities interpretation of the Bible.
All I see here is that you have assumed what you want me to know about the bible and its history and origins.

I'll say it's anyone who worships Jesus, but I'll list some groups and tell me if they're Christian or not. Then maybe you can define for me what a Christian is.
I see you've placed some people groups in your list who have written their own additions to the bible, changing who Jesus was in the bible to someone who is not the Jesus who saves. Paul warned us about this in Galatians.


-Catholics
-Calvinist
-Mormons
-Armenians
-World Mission Society Church of God
-Methodist
-Jehovah Witnesses
-Baptist
-Anabaptist
-7th Day Adventist
-Eastern Orthodox
-Only people who interpret the Bible as SteveB does
How about the people who do what they want to create their own beliefs about Jesus?
Ever read the Revelation? Ever actually pay attention to what the 7 letters to the 7 churches stated?
It's a rather curious set of problems that Jesus said exists in his churches.
One church is spiritually dead.
Another is about ready to be kicked to the curb because they lost their first love.
Another, Jesus is standing outside the church asking to be welcomed in.
One church has gotten caught up in idol worship. One church is experiencing severe persecution and is being encouraged to hang in there. Another church is told they're doing great, and to keep going and not give up.
So.... all your list, I'm not particularly bothered with it.
It pretty much reads like the who's who in Revelation 2-3.

By consistently, you mean as you interpret it, because if anyone comes to a different conclusion than you, then they're not reading it consistently.
By consistently I mean consistently.
If I wanted to know whether or not the gold I'm buying is genuine gold or just a poor grade of gold mingled with other metals, I use the same process to test it, through the entire period of time that I'm buying gold.
I don't pick one process for the first run, and then another process for the next two runs, and yet another process for the 4th through the 6th runs....
I use the same process throughout.

Man, that must really suck for all of the Christians prior to the mass publication of the Bible, so about 1700 years of church history, or about 85% of it.
I would say that it's a good thing that you're not living during that period of history. You could have been a corrupt pope or priest, bent on destroying the lives of people who didn't agree with your interpretation of the scrolls hidden in the Vatican.

Maybe Jesus should've come around 1600AD if it's such an important part of being a Christian.
I'll let you take that up with Jesus.
The scriptures say he came in the fullness of time, right when God wanted him to.

Yeah, but they probably weren't real Christians, and are going to burn in hell for following a false deity. Narrow is the way, and few are those that find, you know.
I'll let you work through this yourself.
I'd say that you should be more interested in making sure you don't perish in the lake of fire.
That is why Jesus came. To save each person from the judgment due sin.


Both. Although I found privately to be the most edifying. And it's never alone, it's reading the works of Tim Keller, RC Sproul, CS Lewis, Philip Yancey, NT Wright, Peter Ends, Rob Bell, Michael Brown, Greg Koukl, Mary Jo Sharp, Paul Copeland, DA Carson, Frank Turek, Norm Geisler, Michael Heiser, etc and listening to the Bible Project, the Naked Bible, Peter Ends, Utterly Heretical, William Lane Craig, Stand to Reason, and numerous other Podcast, then thinking about the things I've heard and finding out if what they say hold water in comparison to what someone else says that is contradictory, then forming my own conclusions based on what I think the best evidence and reasons are.
Curious how you're reading all those authors, and yet have missed Jesus himself.

To me, christianity is not about a community of people, writers who are highly educated and eloquent about the bible and the world around us.

It's about the man Jesus.
In 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 it states

1Co 2:1-5 WEB 1 When I came to you, brothers, I didn’t come with excellence of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 My speech and my preaching were not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith wouldn’t stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

I didn't sign up to join a religion, or a community of people.

I "signed up" for Jesus himself.
It's curious how easily resolved the problem with people becomes when I'm reminded that my focus and attention is to not be directed to my fellow Jesus followers, but on Jesus himself.

Heb 12:1-2 WEB 1 Therefore let’s also, seeing we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let’s run with perseverance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.​

So, since you've clearly been reading a lot of different writers and their works, I'll leave you with the only question that actually matters...

Who do you say that Jesus is?
Is he just a wise teacher who went around teaching and helping people?
Is he a deceiver who deluded himself and his listeners?
Is he a prophet?
Just another madman who is dead and buried?
Or is he who he claimed to be? The Son of the True and Living God, who died and rose again and is now in heaven, awaiting the time to return to establish the Kingdom of God on earth?

I'd encourage you to deal with this before you die. It'd be a pity to die with so much knowledge and never actually chose to know God.
 
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