The Righteousness of Faith

eternomade

Well-known member
Many people profess that faith precedes regeneration, or, that justification is a result of one's faith. This makes faith a condition, or in other words, a meritorious work. I believe this is a false gospel, one that does not save. Scripture says this about the righteousness credited to Abraham:

"How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised."
Romans 4:10 ESV

Abraham was made righteous by God(Genesis 15:6) before he was circumcised with his son Ishmael(Genesis 17). Abraham was worshiping the "moon god" in Ur of the Chaldeans when God first called him. He was not seeking God... Therefore I argue that only God regenerates a person BEFORE He gives them repentance and faith. Only those found in Christ(Ephesians 1) are those who God loves and regenerates.

The Gospel is not an offer but a declaration of what Christ has already finished.

"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
Romans 9:16 ESV
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
I'd see several things wrong with this.

First, Scripture describes faith as instrumental to salvation, which includes justification and regeneration. "We have access by faith into this grace in which we stand." Paul does not say "Was it before or after faith?" Paul puts faith first, "Abraham believed God and it was counted."

Second, it is a literal non sequitur to demand that all actions producing a result means one earns the result. This one seems hard for some people to see for some strange reason. Receiving a gift does not automatically mean the gift was earned, action A resulting in B does not mean earning B.

Third, if the Gospel were actually only what were already finished, then the results of the atonement have to always be in effect for those atoned, but the Bible describes Christians before salvation as "dead in their sins," "by nature children of wrath," and "without hope and without God."

Matt Slick tries to get around point three by positing a doctrine of "functional condemnation," sort of a theoretical application I guess in some symbolic way, but this is nowhere in the text.
First, faith is instrumental to salvation. It is a gift of God. Belief is something granted by God. Both are a means to a end.

Second, if a action is required to attain something then you absolutely have earned it. Arminians insist faith is not a gift of God.

Third, the effects of the atonement are tealized in time. The Bible says our sin debt was canceled on the cross. Yet it's not actually canceled until we believe in time.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Classical Arminians believe the grace of God is necessary to produce faith in us, but God does not believe for us.



Classical Arminians do not "insist faith is not a gift from God." You have been misinformed.



That's asserting a logical contradiction. That is saying both A and NOT A are true simultaneously. Either one or the other must be true. You cannot have a "canceled debt" that is somehow not canceled at any point in time.
Classical Arminians believe the grace of God is necessary to produce faith in us, but God does not believe for us.



Classical Arminians do not "insist faith is not a gift from God." You have been misinformed.



That's asserting a logical contradiction. That is saying both A and NOT A are true simultaneously. Either one or the other must be true. You cannot have a "canceled debt" that is somehow not canceled at any point in time.
No one says God believes for us.

That's good. So it is a gift of God then?

Your issue is with scripture not me. It says specifically our sin debt is canceled at the cross. So they are both true. Already but not yet.
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
Absolutely.

And if we don't import determinism into the meaning of "gift," then we know that a gift is something that sometimes needs to be used.

The fact determinists don't like the words "forced" or "God makes us do X," shows intuitively they know there is something morally wrong with determinism.
If it's a gift of God it's His to give to whomever He pleases right? Your not obligated to give a gift.

Actually we dont like it because that is not what we teach. Determinism has nothing to do with morality.
 
G

guest1

Guest
Classical Arminians believe the grace of God is necessary to produce faith in us, but God does not believe for us.



Classical Arminians do not "insist faith is not a gift from God." You have been misinformed.



That's asserting a logical contradiction. That is saying both A and NOT A are true simultaneously. Either one or the other must be true. You cannot have a "canceled debt" that is somehow not canceled at any point in time.
Is Jesus God and not God at the same time ?

Is God One yet Three simultaneously?

Oops

Do miracles defy logic and science ?

Oops

3 Strikes you are outta there

Next
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Many people profess that faith precedes regeneration, or, that justification is a result of one's faith. This makes faith a condition, or in other words, a meritorious work.

Not it makes faith the putting your trust in God to do it.

I believe this is a false gospel, one that does not save.

Gospel messages do not save. God does.

Scripture says this about the righteousness credited to Abraham:

No, it says God reckoned his act of faith as righteousness.

"How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised."
Romans 4:10 ESV

Abraham was made righteous by God(Genesis 15:6) before he was circumcised with his son Ishmael(Genesis 17). Abraham was worshiping the "moon god" in Ur of the Chaldeans when God first called him. He was not seeking God... Therefore I argue that only God regenerates a person BEFORE He gives them repentance and faith. Only those found in Christ(Ephesians 1) are those who God loves and regenerates.

The Gospel is not an offer but a declaration of what Christ has already finished.

"So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
Romans 9:16 ESV
 

eternomade

Well-known member
Not it makes faith the putting your trust in God to do it.
I don't understand.


Gospel messages do not save. God does.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 1:16‭-‬17 KJV
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
I don't understand.

That is not surprising.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Romans 1:16‭-‬17 KJV

So you are suggesting your Savior is a set of words?
 

fltom

Well-known member
Many people profess that faith precedes regeneration, or, that justification is a result of one's faith. This makes faith a condition, or in other words, a meritorious work. I believe this is a false gospel, one that does not save.

Just like scripture

Rregeneration is new life

The bible is clear

1 Faith precedes new life which is what regeneration supplies

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

2 John tells us faith is before regeneration

John 1:12–13 —ESV
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

3 We are told regeneration is through the gospel

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pet. 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1Cor. 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


We know the gospel not mixed with faith does not profit

Heb. 4:2 —KJV
“For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

as it must be through faith in the gospel we are born again

4 Peter quoted above confirms

1Pet. 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pet. 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pet. 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
1Pet. 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
1Pet. 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pet. 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

5 Jesus narrative with Nicodemus


John 3:3–17 —KJV
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Are we to suppose Jesus never answered him. I don't think so

Hear his answer

Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”


6 repentance the flip side of faith precedes life - regeneration

Acts 11:18 —KJV
“When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.”

7 Faith precedes a purified heart which regeneration supplies

Acts 15:9 —KJV
“And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.”

8 Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 —ESV

“he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,”

so every verse which puts Faith before salvation proves faith is before regeneration

Rom. 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom. 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom. 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom. 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom. 10:12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom. 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

9 Regeneration is the start of a life which is eternal

So every verse which puts faith before eternal life shows faith is previous to regeneration

John 3:16 —KJV

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
 

Manfred

Well-known member
1 Faith precedes new life which is what regeneration supplies
And none of those scriptures show a faith born in the carnal mind of man who is unable to discern Spiritual truths that cannot be understood in the flesh, with the carnal mind.

You should try and come up with something new.
Your wall of cut and paste does not support your false teaching of a carnal faith.
 

Manfred

Well-known member
That is not surprising.



So you are suggesting your Savior is a set of words?
What is not surprising is your inability to address what the poster was saying.

Your post says nothing at all.
The gospel is the power of God, not the words are power without the Spirit of God.
The meaning behind the other posters comment therefore is above your comprehension. Is that the cause of the hostility?
 

fltom

Well-known member
And none of those scriptures show a faith born in the carnal mind of man who is unable to discern Spiritual truths that cannot be understood in the flesh, with the carnal mind.

You should try and come up with something new.
Your wall of cut and paste does not support your false teaching of a carnal faith.
Sorry bald denials do not address anything

Try actually addressing the verses


your idea man is incapable of understanding any spiritual truth is not supported by scripture

which is why you dismiss verses without ever addressing them or proving your view
 

fltom

Well-known member
Many people profess that faith precedes regeneration, or, that justification is a result of one's faith. This makes faith a condition, or in other words, a meritorious work. I believe this is a false gospel, one that does not save. Scripture says this about the righteousness credited to Abraham:

"How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised."
Romans 4:10 ESV
For good reason

Regeneration is the impartation of life which is preceded by faith/repentance

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. It is through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

it is through faith we are saved

Titus 3:8 (KJV)
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.


Abraham was made righteous by God(Genesis 15:6) before he was circumcised with his son Ishmael(Genesis 17). Abraham was worshiping the "moon god" in Ur of the Chaldeans when God first called him. He was not seeking God... Therefore I argue that only God regenerates a person BEFORE He gives them repentance and faith. Only those found in Christ(Ephesians 1) are those who God loves and regenerates.
One must have faith before one is in Christ

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV)
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
 

fltom

Well-known member
Many people profess that faith precedes regeneration, or, that justification is a result of one's faith. This makes faith a condition, or in other words, a meritorious work. I believe this is a false gospel, one that does not save. Scripture says this about the righteousness credited to Abraham:

"How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised."
Romans 4:10 ESV
For good reason

Regeneration is the impartation of life which is preceded by faith/repentance

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection. It is through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

it is through faith we are saved

Titus 3:8 (KJV)
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.


Abraham was made righteous by God(Genesis 15:6) before he was circumcised with his son Ishmael(Genesis 17). Abraham was worshiping the "moon god" in Ur of the Chaldeans when God first called him. He was not seeking God... Therefore I argue that only God regenerates a person BEFORE He gives them repentance and faith. Only those found in Christ(Ephesians 1) are those who God loves and regenerates.
One must have faith before one is in Christ

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV)
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
 
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