The Roman Catholic Eucharistic Christ and the Jesus of the Bible
- Thread starter RayneBeau
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pilgrim
Well-known member
They are the same Person.
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
That depends on what you mean by "difference."
It is one and the same Jesus Christ. In that sense, there is no difference.
The difference does not lie in WHO and WHAT is present, the difference lies in the MODE of how Christ is present. The Jesus of the Bible walked the earth according to earthly flesh, then after the resurrection, glorified flesh. What is present in the Eucharist is not the earthly flesh of Christ, but the glorified flesh of Christ according to Sacrament. This is to say, it is one and the same Christ that is present-----but according to substance, not accidents.
Yes Jesus of the bible is real.
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Accidents not substantiated by scripture, Jesus, nor his apostles.
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Accidents is just a fancy philosophical term that refers to appearances. Substance is a term that refers to the nature of the thing, accidents the appearances.
The substance of the Eucharist is Jesus, while it retains the accidents of bread and wine.
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Again, neither substance nor accidents stated in scripture, by Jesus, or by his apostles; anymore than a door, a gate, a vine is the substance and accidents of Jesus.
Read John 6 in context: Bread, wine, door, vine are metaphors for entering, believing in the person of Jesus Christ.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
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Nondenom40
Well-known member
Either the wafer is God or its not. This malarky about substance and accidents is just a smoke screen to fool followers into thinking what they see is one thing but what it really is is another. Not a shred of this is in scripture. The Lords Table was never meant to be a philosophical ceremony. Seems you like to chalk up a lot of what you believe to philosophy. Christianity is much simpler than that.
Nondenom40
Well-known member
Jesus is God and an actual person before and after His death and resurrection. The wafer consumed by catholics during the theater called the mass is a lifeless piece of dry stale bread. Its alleged by the ccc 1392 to be the risen Christ. How the risen Christ got on the cross is beyond me.
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Correct. It is God. We aren't Lutheran. They believe it is God and bread, not us.
What malarky? It isn't that difficult. It is the body and blood of Christ under the appearances of bread and wine.
Well, since, 'It isn't that difficult.'
It should be easy to show/prove, 'It is the body and blood of Christ under the appearances of bread and wine.'
May the tap dancing begin.
What evidence do you have? How do you prove there is a change? Miracles can always be proven. There was always evidence of physical changes in scripture eg water changed into wine, tasted like wine, fish died when the Nile turned to blood. You have nothing at all.
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Miracles done by Jesus were visible and proven; should not be difficult for RCC to prove, being the RCC is the alleged Vicar of Christ on earth.
Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
RayneBeau
Well-known member
The BIble does not "teach" a thing about "accidents" relating to "substances" makes Jesus Christ anew at the hands of a Roman Catholic priest in the Roman Catholic Church. What the Bible does "teach" is that our eternal destiny depends on whether or not we accept the true Jesus as our Lord and Savior. To know this Jesus of the Bible, we need to be certain who He is. Jesus stated this in John 8:
"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins; for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."
And so, the only way we can be certain that we know the biblical Jesus is to know the Word of God.
romishpopishorganist
Well-known member
Actually it does. Jesus said "This IS my body." If it isn't Jesus's body, what is it?
Oh, right--just bread and wine. For Protestants when Jesus said "This is my body" what Jesus REALLY meant was "This is bread and wine" not "This is my body."
And you have the audacity to accuse Catholics of ignoring the plain words of Scripture? Yeah--pot, meet kettle.
Well, you can have your bread and wine.
No Jesus doesn't teach what the RC teaches at all.
Yep there is more than the plain words of Scripture which proves RCs lack the ability to understand scripture. Context and the scene are all important when understanding the words of the Last Supper.
You can have your false Jesus.
bluedog1us
Well-known member
Peter summed it up perfectly in John 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
That whole chapter is about faith! Not cannibalism!
RayneBeau
Well-known member
"If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch;
and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them
into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in
me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what
ye will, and it shall be done unto you. John 15: 6-7
In spite of this clear warning, followers of Christ know Scripture tells us that many will be deceived into believing in "another Jesus." These people will be convinced they know the biblical Jesus but instead will be seduced by Satan.
and is withered, and men gather them, and cast them
into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in
me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what
ye will, and it shall be done unto you. John 15: 6-7
In spite of this clear warning, followers of Christ know Scripture tells us that many will be deceived into believing in "another Jesus." These people will be convinced they know the biblical Jesus but instead will be seduced by Satan.
If Satan wanted to counterfeit the Jesus of the Bible, wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest this counterfeit Jesus would much resemble the biblical Jesus mixed together with characteristcs that were not biblical?
RayneBeau
Well-known member
That is so very true, but Roman Catholics are required by their institution to embrace the Eucharist. It is entirely true that millions upon millions of Roman Catholics do NOT accept Rome's doctines concernig transubstantion. Many Roman Catholics deny that Jesus Christ is literally and phsically present in the Eucharist. But the RCC's position on this is clear. Anyone who denies any aspect of the RCC's teachings on the Eucharist is to be "anathema"! Read the following quotes taken directly from the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent and referenced in The Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church which are very clear:
"If anyone denies that in thesacrament of the most
Holy Eucharist are contaied truly, really and
substantially the body and blood together with the soul
and divinity of ou Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently
the whole Christ, but says tha He is in it ony as in a
sign, or figure or force, let him be anathema."
"If anyone says that Christ received in the Eucharist
is received spiritually only and not also sacramentally
and really, let him be anathema."