The Samaritans who believed but did not receive the Spirit

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, both men and women.... 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For the Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them...
Acts 8


Did the Samaritans believe before they had received the Holy Spirit?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, both men and women.... 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For the Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them...
Acts 8


Did the Samaritans believe before they had received the Holy Spirit?
Peter layed hands on the Samaritan Christians for the purpose of imparting Spiritual Gifts, Ordination, Healing, etc. You stopped your citation of Acts 8 too soon; the Holy Spirit is also given for other reasons after we're clearly established as a Saint of God...

Is Acts 8 Soteriology or Ecclesiology? Your Thread is now a discussion over which one of us is committing the Logical Fallacy of Making a Category Mistake. Which Unitarian authority teaches Acts 8 is about Soteriology? I can cite a Protestant teacher who says Acts 8 is about Ecclesiology...
 
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JDS

Active member
Peter layed hands on the Samaritan Christians for the purpose of imparting Spiritual Gifts, Ordination, Healing, etc. You stopped your citation of Acts 8 too soon; the Holy Spirit is also given for other reasons after we're clearly established as a Saint of God...

Is Acts 8 Soteriology or Ecclesiology? Your Thread is now a discussion over which one of us is committing the Logical Fallacy of Making a Category Mistake. Which Unitarian teaches Acts 8 is about Soteriology? I can cite a Protestant teacher who says Acts 8 is about Ecclesiology...
This is not true. The only believers who could exercise the apostolic sign gifts were the apostles and prophets. These are the only people who were commissioned to preach to Israel because this message must be accompanied with signs. The Jews require a sign, according to 1 Cor 1:22 and God provided them as a witness for the first 7 years of the age. According to Jn 4 Jesus thought the Samaritans were part of Israel, but Judah received the gospel first.

Anyone can prove that just because someone gets saved it does not mean they can work miracles. Go out in the yard and turn a rock into a loaf of bread. Unless God is in it the most saved person on the earth today cannot do it. Nobody can do miracles today because there are no more apostles. Even faith healers get the Covid, proving they are fake.
 

civic

Well-known member
Nobody can do miracles today because there are no more apostles.
Even though I completely agree with this statement above, its only an opinion as you have not proven it from Scripture.

hope this helps !!!
 
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ReverendRV

Well-known member
This is not true. The only believers who could exercise the apostolic sign gifts were the apostles and prophets. These are the only people who were commissioned to preach to Israel because this message must be accompanied with signs. The Jews require a sign, according to 1 Cor 1:22 and God provided them as a witness for the first 7 years of the age. According to Jn 4 Jesus thought the Samaritans were part of Israel, but Judah received the gospel first.

Anyone can prove that just because someone gets saved it does not mean they can work miracles. Go out in the yard and turn a rock into a loaf of bread. Unless God is in it the most saved person on the earth today cannot do it. Nobody can do miracles today because there are no more apostles. Even faith healers get the Covid, proving they are fake.
I think you didn't understand what I said...
 

JDS

Active member
Even though I completely agree with this statement above, its only an opinion as you have not proved it from Scripture.

hope this helps !!!
Well, anyone who knows anything about building is that one lays a foundation after he has digged down to solid earth where no shifting can take place. He then lays the foundation on that and after the foundation is laid, he begins to frame up the building, and, depending on what kind of building he is going with, he may put a capstone on it. The building is then complete because that is the last thing one does.

Consider this building.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye (gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (Jewish believers), and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye (gentiles) also (in addition to) are builded together (with the Jews) for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Jesus died and was buried only once. The foundation is laid in the beginning of the building project and it is not laid again, and the framework of the building continues even to this day until it is finished.

This is the proof you need.
 

civic

Well-known member
Well, anyone who knows anything about building is that one lays a foundation after he has digged down to solid earth where no shifting can take place. He then lays the foundation on that and after the foundation is laid, he begins to frame up the building, and, depending on what kind of building he is going with, he may put a capstone on it. The building is then complete because that is the last thing one does.

Consider this building.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye (gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (Jewish believers), and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye (gentiles) also (in addition to) are builded together (with the Jews) for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Jesus died and was buried only once. The foundation is laid in the beginning of the building project and it is not laid again, and the framework of the building continues even to this day until it is finished.

This is the proof you need.
Great foundation but you still have not proven that miracles, signs and wonders ceased with the Apostles. But you are off to a good start.
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Peter layed hands on the Samaritan Christians for the purpose of imparting Spiritual Gifts, Ordination, Healing, etc. You stopped your citation of Acts 8 too soon; the Holy Spirit is also given for other reasons after we're clearly established as a Saint of God...

So you are suggesting the Samaritans had indeed received the Spirit before they believed?

Is Acts 8 Soteriology or Ecclesiology? Your Thread is now a discussion over which one of us is committing the Logical Fallacy of Making a Category Mistake. Which Unitarian authority teaches Acts 8 is about Soteriology? I can cite a Protestant teacher who says Acts 8 is about Ecclesiology...
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Yes...

Peter layed hands on the Samaritans for Service, etc...

Ecclesiology, not Soteriology...

Bizarre.

I said: "So you are suggesting the Samaritans had indeed received the Spirit before they believed?"

And you say "Yes"? Wow.

What does this say?

14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For the Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands,
Acts 8

So you actually expect me to believe this actually means the Samaritans already had received the Spirit before Peter had arrived and this laying on of hands was just to impart gifts of the Spirit which Spirit they had already received. Is that about right?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Bizarre.

What does this say?

14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For the Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands,

So you actually expect me to believe this actually means the Samaritans already had received the Spirit before Peter had arrived and this laying on of hands was just to impart gifts of the Spirit which they had already received. Is that about right?
Yes I expect you to believe it; because Acts 8 is not the only chapter in the Bible. This is the 'Theology' Forum, not the 'Acts 8 Alone' Board. ALL Scripture is good for Doctrine, not just Acts 8 is good for Doctrine. The Samaritans were not Born Again of their Will, but were Born of the Spirit; thus this second giving of the Spirit was for Ecclesiology, not Soteriology...

I felt the need to answer your Thread since no one tried to take it on. I now leave it for others to take you on; if they want to...
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Yes I expect you to believe it; because Acts 8 is not the only chapter in the Bible. This is the 'Theology' Forum, not the 'Acts 8 Alone' Board. ALL Scripture is good for Doctrine, not just Acts 8 is good for Doctrine. The Samaritans were not Born Again of their Will, but were Born of the Spirit; thus this second giving of the Spirit was for Ecclesiology, not Soteriology...

I felt the need to answer your Thread since no one tried to take it on. I now leave it for others to take you on; if they want to...

I can't believe the things you people do for the sake of your creedal idol. It's quite shocking really.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, both men and women.... 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For the Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them...
Acts 8


Did the Samaritans believe before they had received the Holy Spirit?
Yeah, The Spirit had not fallen on them, however He had regenerated them in order to believe the Gospel. The Spirit falling on them wasnt new birth, it was merely an evidence, a historical event that God had accepted them through Christ like the jews.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, both men and women.... 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For the Spirit had not yet fallen upon any of them...
Acts 8


Did the Samaritans believe before they had received the Holy Spirit?
Nope. The Born Again experience IS when the Holy Spirit Indwells Christians. Acts 2:4 is a DIFFERENT ISSUE - A Christian has the Holy SPirit IN HIM, and Act 2:4 is when the Holy SPirit Came ON the Christians - same as in Samaria. The Holy Spirit came INTO the Disciples as recorded in John 20:22. Cessationists deny this.
 

JDS

Active member
Great foundation but you still have not proven that miracles, signs and wonders ceased with the Apostles. But you are off to a good start.
The great men of the Bible for the first 2500 years of human history did no miracle. That includes men like Shem, Lamech, Noah, Abraham and so on. No recorded miracles.

The first man to perform a miracle is Moses. That was in the context of the people of God, Israel. All miracles and signs have a connection with this people in their national sense or they are fake miracles and sign. Since Israel was dispersed in total into the nations in AD 70, there have been no miracles. Not a single one.

No woman has ever performed a miracle.

Gentiles spoke in tongues in Acts 10 as a sign to the Jews present that God had given them his Spirit and saved them.

No record in scripture that gentiles ever performed a miracle.

There will be miracles, real and fake after the church is taken away.
 

civic

Well-known member
The great men of the Bible for the first 2500 years of human history did no miracle. That includes men like Shem, Lamech, Noah, Abraham and so on. No recorded miracles.

The first man to perform a miracle is Moses. That was in the context of the people of God, Israel. All miracles and signs have a connection with this people in their national sense or they are fake miracles and sign. Since Israel was dispersed in total into the nations in AD 70, there have been no miracles. Not a single one.

No woman has ever performed a miracle.

Gentiles spoke in tongues in Acts 10 as a sign to the Jews present that God had given them his Spirit and saved them.

No record in scripture that gentiles ever performed a miracle.

There will be miracles, real and fake after the church is taken away.
You are getting closer to making a biblical argument but you are still lacking the scriptures to support your points and from a theological POV to make a case from Genesis - Revelation why they stopped. Also you have not even established the purpose for miracles signs and wonders.

hope this helps !!!
 

JDS

Active member
You are getting closer to making a biblical argument but you are still lacking the scriptures to support your points and from a theological POV to make a case from Genesis - Revelation why they stopped. Also you have not even established the purpose for miracles signs and wonders.

hope this helps !!!
Why would not my posts be convincing. I did not make a case from Bazooka Joe's bubble gum comics, but from the Scriptures of God. What I have said thus far is true. Miracles and sign are testimonies to the eyes. The scriptures says that we live by faith, not by sight. If you need a miracle you can see in order to believe, then you are not living by faith, according to logical reasoning.

2 Corinthians 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight

But, when this was written, the Jews required a sign and this is the reason signs were given to them They are confirming miracles to give credence to the words these apostles spake to Israel. Look.

1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

The following is not directed at gentiles and these men did not preach to any gentiles until 10 years after this was spoken by our Lord.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

You will need to define "creature" in this context.

Now, watch this as it is spoken to "Hebrews." That is another word for Jews.

Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

If a miracle or sign is performed in the scriptures a member of Israel is present. You remember in John 6 Jesus fed the 5000 to set up the meeting with the Jews. They could not deny the miracle. The miracle authenticated the words and person of the Lord Jesus.

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

Prophets? How do you think they confirmed the words?

As long as Israel had a national identity, they were given confirming signs. After they lost national identity, God considered them as gentiles because they were under the government of gentiles.

John 3:1
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
 

civic

Well-known member
Why would not my posts be convincing. I did not make a case from Bazooka Joe's bubble gum comics, but from the Scriptures of God. What I have said thus far is true. Miracles and sign are testimonies to the eyes. The scriptures says that we live by faith, not by sight. If you need a miracle you can see in order to believe, then you are not living by faith, according to logical reasoning.

2 Corinthians 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight

But, when this was written, the Jews required a sign and this is the reason signs were given to them They are confirming miracles to give credence to the words these apostles spake to Israel. Look.

1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

The following is not directed at gentiles and these men did not preach to any gentiles until 10 years after this was spoken by our Lord.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

You will need to define "creature" in this context.

Now, watch this as it is spoken to "Hebrews." That is another word for Jews.

Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

If a miracle or sign is performed in the scriptures a member of Israel is present. You remember in John 6 Jesus fed the 5000 to set up the meeting with the Jews. They could not deny the miracle. The miracle authenticated the words and person of the Lord Jesus.

30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.

32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

Prophets? How do you think they confirmed the words?

As long as Israel had a national identity, they were given confirming signs. After they lost national identity, God considered them as gentiles because they were under the government of gentiles.

John 3:1
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
You still are lacking evidence from Scripture for the PURPOSE of miracles ,signs and wonders and then the NECESSITY of them ceasing from Scripture.

So far you have not proven nor established either one. And as an FYI- I agree with your position but you still have yet to prove its validity.

hope this helps !!!
 

JDS

Active member
You still are lacking evidence from Scripture for the PURPOSE of miracles ,signs and wonders and then the NECESSITY of them ceasing from Scripture.

So far you have not proven nor established either one. And as an FYI- I agree with your position but you still have yet to prove its validity.

hope this helps !!!
It does not surprise me that a man who is a Calvinists cannot have anything proved to him from the scriptures, no matter how reasonable and logical it is. All one has to do to prove I am not telling the truth is to produce one miracle or sign that is legitimate after the year AD 70 when Israel ceased to be a nation or cite a scripture reference of a single miracle from the 2500 year era before Moses, who was a son of Israel. Miracles and signs are doctrines of the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is not present on the earth at this time. When the church is gone, then we will have miracles, both real and fake, because the kingdom of God will once again be the focus.
 

civic

Well-known member
It does not surprise me that a man who is a Calvinists cannot have anything proved to him from the scriptures, no matter how reasonable and logical it is. All one has to do to prove I am not telling the truth is to produce one miracle or sign that is legitimate after the year AD 70 when Israel ceased to be a nation or cite a scripture reference of a single miracle from the 2500 year era before Moses, who was a son of Israel. Miracles and signs are doctrines of the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is not present on the earth at this time. When the church is gone, then we will have miracles, both real and fake, because the kingdom of God will once again be the focus.
You still are not getting it JDS. I agree with you regarding miracles, signs and wonders. You have yet to prove your argument is valid from Scripture in 2 areas. I've studied this for over 4 decades and know the answers to these questions or points below. I'm asking you to prove them and to come up with a biblical argument. Just because you say something is true does not make it true. You must have biblical evidence to support your argument and the points you are making. You still have not proven the following 2 main points of the argument.

1- The purpose of miracles , signs and wonders
2- Why they have ceased or are no longer necessary.

BTW- this has nothing to do with Calvinism/Arminianism. Most Calvinists I know believe those are still valid gifts in use today. I'm in the minority.

hope this helps !!!
 
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