The Samaritans who believed but did not receive the Spirit

ReverendRV

Well-known member
It does not surprise me that a man who is a Calvinists cannot have anything proved to him from the scriptures, no matter how reasonable and logical it is. All one has to do to prove I am not telling the truth is to produce one miracle or sign that is legitimate after the year AD 70 when Israel ceased to be a nation or cite a scripture reference of a single miracle from the 2500 year era before Moses, who was a son of Israel. Miracles and signs are doctrines of the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is not present on the earth at this time. When the church is gone, then we will have miracles, both real and fake, because the kingdom of God will once again be the focus.
Would you use things from Roman Catholicism like Stigmata to prove your point? They were the first Charasmatics...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
You still are not getting it JDS. I agree with you regarding miracles, signs and wonders. You have yet to prove your argument is valid from Scripture in 2 areas. I've studied this for over 4 decades and know the answers to these questions or points below. I'm asking you to prove them and to come up with a biblical argument. Just because you say something is true does not make it true. You must have biblical evidence to support your argument and the points you are making. You still have not proven the following 2 main points of the argument.

1- The purpose of miracles , signs and wonders
2- Why they have ceased or are no longer necessary.

hope this helps !!!
Ah, you're playing devil's advocate just to see if he's capable of PROVING his point...
 

civic

Well-known member
Ah, you're playing devil's advocate just to see if he's capable of PROVING his point...
Not so much the devils advocate as it is he needs to prove those points which he has yet to do in this thread. And its not that hard to prove when we understand why God used them with His people in both testaments. They were rare and for a good reason he has yet to establish the why. :)

And as a heads up I'm not playing a game but trying to get him to uses good hermenuetics/exegesis for his position.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Not so much the devils advocate as it is he needs to prove those points which he has yet to do in this thread. And its not that hard to prove when we understand why God used them with His people in both testaments. They were rare and for a good reason he has yet to establish the why. :)
I learned the Doctrine of Signs and Wonders from Mike Renihan when he visited one of our local Reformed Baptist Churches back in the day...
 

civic

Well-known member
Ceasing; I'm Baptist...
ok then you get the argument regarding their purpose and why they ceased and how its tied into new revelation from God( OT- law and prophets. NT - Jesus and the Apostles) authenticating their message ! :)

he never established it .
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
ok then you get the argument regarding their purpose and why they ceased and how its tied into new revelation from God( OT- law and prophets. NT - Jesus and the Apostles) authenticating their message ! :)
Pentecostalism says Signs and Wonders authenticate their ministries like lady preachers; IE Tongues. But Jesus himself tells us in his own words that he is against modern day lady preachers...
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Jezebel ~ by ReverendRV

Revelation 2:20 BSB; But I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads My servants to be sexually immoral and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

While in the Garden of Eden and in the presence of her husband Adam, Eve took over a situation that he should have handled. She dealt with the Devil and was deceived, she gave Adam a bite of the forbidden fruit and he ate it; causing the Fall of Mankind. ~ Jezebel was the Queen of Israel, the wife of King Ahab. There was very little question though which one of them ruled the roost; she was Eve on Steroids. She mixed Idolatry with the Jewish Faith, so God saw that she paid the price for it; what harmony does Christ have with Belial? Her name would go down in Infamy, who names their child Jezebel or Adolph? But our Verse speaks of another Jezebel, one in character only. The Church at Thyatira allowed her to teach as a Prophetess, opposing God’s instruction from Saint Paul. Are we any better than Jezebel was? Let’s see…

Have you ever told a Lie? What do we call people that Lie? Jezebel Lied to gain a Vineyard. Have you ever stolen anything? What do we call those who steal stuff? Jezebel stole that Vineyard from its God given owner. Have you Murdered somebody? Jesus said that Hatred is Murder committed in your heart, have you ever wished someone would die already? Jezebel wanted the Vineyards owner dead so she could give it to her Covetous husband who wanted it from the start. ~ These are just four of God’s Ten Commandments, if he judged you by his standard would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Does this bother you?? You know that you’ve Trespassed against God and Man! We all have boundaries which we shouldn’t cross; but when we realize that we’ve taken forbidden fruit, we know we’re Guilty; even if we did it to please a loved one who coveted the thing in the first place…

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ is this Son of God and he lived his life as an innocent Man for the purpose of keeping the Ten Commandments and to gain a human Righteousness for himself. But he will share this Right Standing with all who believe he died on the Cross to pay for their Sins with his own precious blood; and that he arose from the dead, conquering the Grave. We are Saved by God’s Grace through Faith in the risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, without trying to earn our own standing with God. Confess Jesus Christ as Lord, Repent of your wicked ways and join a Church that teaches the Bible. ~ The Church teaches Premillenialism; IE, Futurism. This means that Jesus is speaking about a woman during Saint John’s era, and about women in the future; the Church believes that future is 'now'. Are you a Prophetess? Do you teach in a position at your Church that God gave to someone else? How is it that you can believe the Book of Revelation is for now and continue to be a Prophetess, since Jesus holds it against the Church?? Will you remember Jesus holds it against you the next time you Preach?

Revelation 2:20 NIV; I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.
 
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JDS

Active member
You still are not getting it JDS. I agree with you regarding miracles, signs and wonders. You have yet to prove your argument is valid from Scripture in 2 areas. I've studied this for over 4 decades and know the answers to these questions or points below. I'm asking you to prove them and to come up with a biblical argument. Just because you say something is true does not make it true. You must have biblical evidence to support your argument and the points you are making. You still have not proven the following 2 main points of the argument.

1- The purpose of miracles , signs and wonders
2- Why they have ceased or are no longer necessary.

BTW- this has nothing to do with Calvinism/Arminianism. Most Calvinists I know believe those are still valid gifts in use today. I'm in the minority.

hope this helps !!!
Go back and read my posts again. I have proven it. However, if you need more proof than 1 Cor 1:22 and what i have given you.

Understand this;

I Cor 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

What is the point? When God is speaking to Israel in a language that is not their native language, which is Hebrew, it is a sign that the nation is under the chastening judgement of God. The statement I highlighted is proven by the fact that God spoke to Israel in 17 different languages in Acts 2 and only 5000 out of about a million or so who were there got saved. If Israel would have heard God he would still be speaking to them in Hebrew. When he deals with all their sins and puts them away he will once again speak to them in a pure language, pure being in one language. It will be Hebrew.

8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent.

Think about it.

No promises are made to anyone except Israel. There is no transition from one economy to another for gentiles. No relationship existed in the OT for gentiles. However, with Israel, who lived under the Mosaic Law and had an ongoing relationship with God there must be confirming signs now that a different economy is being established and Israel must know that God is behind it. How does he prove it to them. Well, one of them tells us if we will listen.

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

This is the purpose of miracles and signs.

No gentile ever required a miracle to believe God. If this is not enough evidence for you then I am not going to weary you any more with it.
 

civic

Well-known member
Go back and read my posts again. I have proven it. However, if you need more proof than 1 Cor 1:22 and what i have given you.

Understand this;

I Cor 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

What is the point? When God is speaking to Israel in a language that is not their native language, which is Hebrew, it is a sign that the nation is under the chastening judgement of God. The statement I highlighted is proven by the fact that God spoke to Israel in 17 different languages in Acts 2 and only 5000 out of about a million or so who were there got saved. If Israel would have heard God he would still be speaking to them in Hebrew. When he deals with all their sins and puts them away he will once again speak to them in a pure language, pure being in one language. It will be Hebrew.

8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve him with one consent.

Think about it.

No promises are made to anyone except Israel. There is no transition from one economy to another for gentiles. No relationship existed in the OT for gentiles. However, with Israel, who lived under the Mosaic Law and had an ongoing relationship with God there must be confirming signs now that a different economy is being established and Israel must know that God is behind it. How does he prove it to them. Well, one of them tells us if we will listen.

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

This is the purpose of miracles and signs.

No gentile ever required a miracle to believe God. If this is not enough evidence for you then I am not going to weary you any more with it.
Your premise is still incorrect.

Why Did Moses use miracles signs and wonders ?

Why Did Elijah and Elisha ?

Why did Jesus ?

Why did the Apostles ?

Hint Gods revelation of the Law, the Prophets to Moses and the Prophets which authenticated their message came from God. The same with Jesus and the Apostles with their message coming form God. Gods revelation ceased with the Apostles. There is no more new revelation from God, it has ceased with the Scriptures which were completed with the Apostles. You are making a secondary argument above and what I have said is the primary reason for them.

And let me know if you need scripture as proof as I have plenty from Jesus and the Apostles which confirm my statements as true.

hope this helps !!!
 

JDS

Active member
Your premise is still incorrect.

Why Did Moses use miracles signs and wonders ?

Why Did Elijah and Elisha ?

Why did Jesus ?

Why did the Apostles ?

Hint Gods revelation of the Law, the Prophets to Moses and the Prophets which authenticated their message came from God. The same with Jesus and the Apostles with their message coming form God. Gods revelation ceased with the Apostles. There is no more new revelation from God, it has ceased with the Scriptures which were completed with the Apostles. You are making a secondary argument above and what I have said is the primary reason for them.

And let me know if you need scripture as proof as I have plenty from Jesus and the Apostles which confirm my statements as true.

hope this helps !!!
I do not need to be convinced but that is the point I thought I was making, but maybe not. Moses was the first writer of scriptures, John the apostle was the last. Both Israelites. Both workers of miracles. Nothing new from God since those days. No miracles before Moses. No miracles after AD 70.

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
 

civic

Well-known member
I do not need to be convinced but that is the point I thought I was making, but maybe not. Moses was the first writer of scriptures, John the apostle was the last. Both Israelites. Both workers of miracles. Nothing new from God since those days. No miracles before Moses. No miracles after AD 70.

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
You have still not supported the premise from Scripture for the purpose of miracles signs and wonders. Who preformed them and why.

Once you establish the above you can make a valid argument for them ceasing. Until then its just assumptions on your part and not an exegetical argument that you have yet to establish.

BTW- I'm trying to help you with your argument hence my critiquing.

hope this helps !!!
 
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