The second level of the CK…new revelation!

Markk

Active member
The LDS church teaches there are three levels in the CK…

The highest is for God and exalted married members, the lowest is for non married members that will be servants…the second level has not been revealed…until today! It is for resurrected beings that can die if the want too!

“As I have demonstrated, these beings will also have bodies of flesh and bone. They are neither baptized, married nor do they have the priesthood. They are there because they are the offspring of Celestial exalted beings, but unlike their parents, these newborns can die if they choose to do so.” [Brother of Jared]


This is what the LDS church does to folks…I shouldn’t be surprised, but I am, when I read some of this stuff.

NOTE: These beings, which are newborn offspring according to this revelation, yet in a previous revelation these were spirits asking their parents for help. I will wait for further revelation to clear that up.

In all honestly and being serious…what a mess.
 

The Prophet

Active member
The LDS church teaches there are three levels in the CK…

The highest is for God and exalted married members, the lowest is for non married members that will be servants…the second level has not been revealed…until today! It is for resurrected beings that can die if the want too!




This is what the LDS church does to folks…I shouldn’t be surprised, but I am, when I read some of this stuff.

NOTE: These beings, which are newborn offspring according to this revelation, yet in a previous revelation these were spirits asking their parents for help. I will wait for further revelation to clear that up.

In all honestly and being serious…what a mess.
Man-made religions seem to be like that :)
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
The LDS church teaches there are three levels in the CK…

The highest is for God and exalted married members, the lowest is for non married members that will be servants…the second level has not been revealed…until today! It is for resurrected beings that can die if the want too!

This is what the LDS church does to folks…I shouldn’t be surprised, but I am, when I read some of this stuff.

NOTE: These beings, which are newborn offspring according to this revelation, yet in a previous revelation these were spirits asking their parents for help. I will wait for further revelation to clear that up.

In all honestly and being serious…what a mess.
So now you admit 3 degrees of the CK exist? Well, that's progress. Regardless of what BoJ said, he certainly was successful in moving the Overton Window.
Good job, BoJ!
 

Markk

Active member
So now you admit 3 degrees of the CK exist? Well, that's progress. Regardless of what BoJ said, he certainly was successful in moving the Overton Window.
Good job, BoJ!
LOL, when did I ever deny it? if you were following …the highest level is were HF is according to LDS theology, that is Celestial Glory. To have a body and Glory like God, a body that is a capable of reproduction and sexual intercourse with as many virgins as they would like to marry in this life and I assume afterwards. Lower level citizens will not be able to have sex or reproduce…who knows maybe they would have private parts? That is no way a celestial body and glory.

Your are saying that people pass through the different kingdoms, which I ask for a reference. I stated after the judgement, one receives the estate the merit.

But to not derail this thread….BoJ has stated that existing spirits basically roam or hang around and and come and ask heavenly parents of help t become mortal by getting a mortal body, and now he is asserting that some of “newborn“ “offspring” can choose to die.

I don’t believe orthodox LDS theology as taught, and then I see self proclaimed TBM’s teaching weird things like this. I just have to wonder what is going on in the church today?

There was a member here a while back named Ralf, I asked him what his wife thought about him becoming a God. And taking on multiple wife’….Ralf actually let his wife respond, and she told us here that “ if Ralf is about with his other wives, creating worlds, and she was lonely, she would just go to HF and ask him if she could have another husband.

Aaron…what is going on?
 
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Aaron32

Well-known member
LOL, when did I ever deny it? if you were following …the highest level is were HF is according to LDS theology, that is Celestial Glory.
So what about lowest level in the CK? Is that celestial glory? If not, what glory is it?
To have a body and Glory like God, a body that is a capable of reproduction and sexual intercourse with as many virgins as they would like to marry in this life and I assume afterwards. Lower level citizens will not be able to have sex or reproduce…who knows maybe they would have private parts? That is no way a celestial body and glory.
*Sigh*
Yeah, lowest CK probably won't be able to reproduce.
But, it's a body that can dwell in the presence of God, so it's different than a terrestrial body, so it's justifiably a body type all its own.
I don't think there's enough taught on the subject to know either way.
Your are saying that people pass through the different kingdoms, which I ask for a reference. I stated after the judgement, one receives the estate the merit.
And I gave you references.
Now you're adding the requirement "after judgment". That's a great question. When exactly is judgment? I'm not sure.
I think once it's determined that a person will no longer progress, that when judgment occurs.
But to not derail this thread….BoJ has stated that existing spirits basically roam or hang around and and come and ask heavenly parents of help t become mortal by getting a mortal body, and now he is asserting that some of “newborn“ “offspring” can choose to die.
Well, we're all so far out in left field in mysteries and deep doctrine, people can say whatever they want. I mean, your saying people can live in the CK without celestial bodies, so....
I don’t believe orthodox LDS theology as taught, and then I see self proclaimed TBM’s teaching weird things like this. I just have to wonder what is going on in the church today?
What's going on is core doctrine is taught (the doctrine of Christ), and people us the bread crumbs to piece together what they think the afterlife is like.
There was a member here a while back named Ralf, I asked him what his wife thought about him becoming a God. And taking on multiple wife’….Ralf actually let his wife respond, and she told us here that “ if Ralf is about with his other wives, creating worlds, and she was lonely, she would just go to HF and ask him if she could have another husband.

Aaron…what is going on?
Lol.
I think people have stopped trying to figure out what the next life will be like, and simply trust in the Lord.

"What do we really know about conditions in the spirit world? I believe a BYU religion professor’s article on this subject had it right: “When we ask ourselves what we know about the spirit world from the standard works, the answer is ‘not as much as we often think.’”

Truth can't defy logic. And when we determine something no longer makes sense, we don't have to accept it. We simply do what is asked of us, and we learn by experience that by keeping the commandments, we find happiness, and if we don't, we're probably missing something.

All I know is, the anti-Mormon message will have less and less effect over time. The Church has no longer the recepticol of beliefs telling you what to believe. It simply gives you instructions on how to receive revelation.

"In coming days, it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting, and constant influence of the Holy Ghost." - Nelson, Apr 2018

Do you believe you're saved based on the knowledge of the afterlife, Markk? Neither do we.
 

Markk

Active member
So what about lowest level in the CK? Is that celestial glory? If not, what glory is it?
It is not the Glory that Gods live, it is not the body that God has according to LDS thought, it is a servants body , one that can not reproduce, and I assume a spIrit. You tell me?

It’s all alike and making sense of a lie is impossible…the best info is that a true glorified body in LDS thought is like HF’s…that is the standard, and the lower level folks won’t have that body.
 

Markk

Active member
Sigh*
Yeah, lowest CK probably won't be able to reproduce.
But, it's a body that can dwell in the presence of God, so it's different than a terrestrial body, so it's justifiably a body type all its own.
I don't think there's enough taught on the subject to know either way.
That is not real clear at all Aaron. It is a mess of contradictions. But what is clear in LDS theology, is that a glorified body is one that God has.

If it is not clear either way to you, why are you being dogmatic with one interpretation?
 

Markk

Active member
And I gave you references.
Now you're adding the requirement "after judgment". That's a great question. When exactly is judgment? I'm not sure.
I think once it's determined that a person will no longer progress, that when judgment occurs.

HUH…are you saying a persons final estate is determined before judgement?


I am really curious to see if you understand what this is saying. It’s sad the church has to speak in such generally language, but it is clear in this video that final judgement is what determines ones estate.

anyway what does this video say to you…and then we can go through it together..

thanks
 

Markk

Active member
Well, we're all so far out in left field in mysteries and deep doctrine, people can say whatever they want. I mean, your saying people can live in the CK without celestial bodies, so....
LOL…yes this is certainly in left field…but I am expounding on left field doctrine..LOL, this genuinely made me laugh…thanks

Look, this is a Christian site, and I am limited in what I can say…but lets say according to LDS theology, HF has certain body parts that allow sexual behavior, and reproduction. He and his wives have reproductive organs. In the lower CK, that is not possible, they are not married…so I have to assume that men (and women) is this level of the CK are missing something. The context where this argument started was in context with these celestial folks reproducing, either on heaven or earth.

So you explain to me, how a person without reproductive organs, can have a true celestial body, the body that God has? If it is a celestial body, what is the body of God and those that are exalted?
 

Markk

Active member
What's going on is core doctrine is taught (the doctrine of Christ), and people us the bread crumbs to piece together what they think the afterlife is like
??? Please expound, you lost me. It might be my fault, these post get too long, and are sometime hard to follow .
 

Markk

Active member
Lol.
I think people have stopped trying to figure out what the next life will be like, and simply trust in the Lord.

"What do we really know about conditions in the spirit world? I believe a BYU religion professor’s article on this subject had it right: “When we ask ourselves what we know about the spirit world from the standard works, the answer is ‘not as much as we often think.’”
Well, when you have new GA generation after generation telling you different things to believe and trust in…good luck. You poo poo some LDS teachings, and champion others. You choose to believe old dead prophets, and then reject them when I quote from them. You despise Talmage, you love BY, you poo poo wacky teachings by Orson Pratt, but accept wacky teaching by Joseph Smith.

It is such a mess.
 

Markk

Active member
Do you believe you're saved based on the knowledge of the afterlife, Markk? Neither do we.
Aaron…who is we? Your theology is about as un-orthodox as it comes. You even admit is and call it Aaronisms.

LDS theology teaches you are saved (eternal life) by duty and merit…and the reward of this is expounded on and is basically the carrot on a string. It is why you got to the temple.

My mother and most TBM family’s I know have a picture or sign on there wall, the reads ‘Families are Forever”…I bet you had one in your home growing up? So is is based on your knowledge…no, but knowledge of the afterlife is paramount, taught, sought after…and it why you got to the temple. Again is is the carrot on the string, it is what you strive for…”to be like HF.”
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
It is not the Glory that Gods live, it is not the body that God has according to LDS thought, it is a servants body , one that can not reproduce, and I assume a spIrit. You tell me?
I never claim the lower degree of the CK is where God's live.
Still, it's considered Celestial Glory.
I think half the problem is you're thinking of Celestial Glory in terms of physical place, rather than a state of being.
Do you believe that when D&C 93 says : "All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it" that there are spiritual sphere's where God places truth? No. We're talking spiritual concepts.
It’s all alike and making sense of a lie is impossible…
This is what I'm talking about. When you can't explain it, then you say it's all a lie - as if you were the acid test of truth or something. And yet, you talk as if you're a resident expert. It's a bit aggravating.
the best info is that a true glorified body in LDS thought is like HF’s…that is the standard, and the lower level folks won’t have that body.
To clarify. all bodies are glorified, just at different the degrees. Glorification is not binary.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
That is not real clear at all Aaron. It is a mess of contradictions. But what is clear in LDS theology, is that a glorified body is one that God has.
I can't resolve contradictions if you can't identify them.
But we're in agreement - There's in actuality 7 degrees of heaven. The top three are considered "celestial".
God is #1, Angels are # 3
If it is not clear either way to you, why are you being dogmatic with one interpretation?
I'm not being dogmatic. I'm simply refuting what's obviously false. You were saying angels don't have celestial bodies. You're trying to limit "celestial" to only what God has. That's false.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I'm not being dogmatic. I'm simply refuting what's obviously false.

ROTFLOL!!!!! 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

"You keep using dat word. I don't t'ink it means what you t'ink it means."
-- Inigo Montoya


"dogmatic":
"inclined to lay down principles as incontrovertibly true."
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
HUH…are you saying a persons final estate is determined before judgement?
What I'm saying (in the form of a rhetorical question) is: Do you honestly think you're going to be surprised what your judgment is going to be at the day of judgment? That's why we have consciences don't we?

Alma 34:
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.


I am really curious to see if you understand what this is saying. It’s sad the church has to speak in such generally language, but it is clear in this video that final judgement is what determines ones estate.

anyway what does this video say to you…and then we can go through it together..
I think the video is very simplistic - primary-esk

What about the times in the Book of Mormon when the people were past the point of no return?
What about the people sent to outer darkness for 1000 years, and then put back into the telestial kingdom?
If our degree of glory determines the quality of body we receive, why are we resurrected BEFORE judgment? It doesn't make much sense does it?
Is the day of judgment a single day that everyone get's judged at the same time, or is an ongoing phase of life, just like people get born and die everyday? https://www.ldsliving.com/What-Does...the-Morning-of-the-First-Resurrection/s/89035

I think primary diagrams and processes are good for get the simple message intended to be taught (ie. we should repent), but that simplicity isn't appropriate in the deep doctrines you wish for us to elaborate upon.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
LOL…yes this is certainly in left field…but I am expounding on left field doctrine..LOL, this genuinely made me laugh…thanks

Look, this is a Christian site, and I am limited in what I can say…but lets say according to LDS theology, HF has certain body parts that allow sexual behavior, and reproduction. He and his wives have reproductive organs. In the lower CK, that is not possible, they are not married…so I have to assume that men (and women) is this level of the CK are missing something. The context where this argument started was in context with these celestial folks reproducing, either on heaven or earth.

So you explain to me, how a person without reproductive organs, can have a true celestial body, the body that God has? If it is a celestial body, what is the body of God and those that are exalted?
Maybe the term "celestial" just has a broader meaning than you assign to it. I can crop out a few verses the seem to apply specifically to those exalted in the celestial kingdom, and still describe everyone in the Celestial Kingdom.

50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.
66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.
68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.
69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
??? Please expound, you lost me. It might be my fault, these post get too long, and are sometime hard to follow .
You asked, "What is going on?" Essentially, "why are people coming to these alternate conclusions about what eternities vs what's been traditionally taught.

What I'm saying is - thanks to anti-Mormonism, leaders and members realize that salvation isn't a selfish endeavor. It's not about what you receive, its about what you become. That's what is being taught. If Ralf's wife thinks that she'd lose her husband in polygamy, she trusts the Lord will compensate her with what would make her happy. I know non-mormons don't give mormons very much credit in reasoning capacity, but do you honestly think Mormons would believe and commit to something that would make them miserable? No. God gave them a witness of what the truth is, and they trust God will bless them for being faithful.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Well, when you have new GA generation after generation telling you different things to believe and trust in…good luck. You poo poo some LDS teachings, and champion others. You choose to believe old dead prophets, and then reject them when I quote from them. You despise Talmage, you love BY, you poo poo wacky teachings by Orson Pratt, but accept wacky teaching by Joseph Smith.

It is such a mess.
It's not as much of a mess that you might think. I trust the standard works. If leaders agree with me, I quote them.

It's really not any different than any Christian does. Some pick their denomination, others don't pick any at all. When Christians can straighten out all their beliefs, then they will have room to place judgment on us. In the meantime, the core beliefs are basic: 1) Jesus is the Christ, 2)The Church is true, 2) Joseph Smith restored it - the BoM is true.

In the meantime, I take all church leader's statements to heart. I ponder and pray about them, and I find some are more true than others.

"There may be some things that the First Presidency do; that the Apostles do, that cannot for the moment be explained; yet the spirit, the motives that inspire the action can be understood, because each member of the Church has a right to have that measure of the Spirit of God that they can judge as to those who are acting in their interests or otherwise" Lorenzo Snow, "A Serious ordeal, etc.," in Conference Report (October 1898), 54.
 
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