The second level of the CK…new revelation!

Markk

Active member
So I'd be interested in presenting your idea of a "do nothing" salvation on a Christian board and see how well you can defend it.
This is where Christians really do harm to Mormons, and widen the divide. Instead of using Paul's approach of talking about the natural man, and the impossiblity of keeping the entire law, thus salvation can only be found in grace, they portray Christianity as a "do nothing, lawless, easy grace" construct.
If you don't know the transformative power of the atonement, then IMO you never really learned the gospel. That's a pity.
Well, you have obviously never studied at a well balanced Christian fellowship. I think what you wrote here shows how you do not have a understanding of who, so to speak, owns Grace. God owns and offers His Grace, it is not our to earn and buy, it is His and it is offered freely…He is the one that took on our sins, suffered, spit, stabbed, and fed vile. It was not Easy, what is easy is His Yoke when we obey His commandments. When we don’t our Christian walk is a tough row to sow.

What widens the divide for me is there is no transparency in the church. It is a secretively based faith with the GA holding all the authority. They won’t own their past, and IMO are trying hard to figure out their future.
 

Markk

Active member
I'm sure you could find scores of similar quotes on earning salvation. This is also a nuanced truth, of which I have debated fellow Mormons.
To illustrate my point, simply read the entire article from which you extracted the quote:
I have read/listened to it several times…? What does he say in the talks that changes the context of the quote I pasted?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So I'd be interested in presenting your idea of a "do nothing" salvation on a Christian board and see how well you can defend it.

So you create a STRAW-MAN, and expect us to defend YOUR straw-man?!
Yeah, I don't think so.

This is where Christians really do harm to Mormons,

And this is where Mormons run away from trying to defend Mormonism (since they know it's indefensible), and try to attack Christianity instead.

and widen the divide. Instead of using Paul's approach of talking about the natural man, and the impossiblity of keeping the entire law, thus salvation can only be found in grace,

Um, that is EXACTLY my presentation, and has been for the past 30 years!
Just read my posts in the A&C forum!

And it is the exact same presentation of EVERY Christian I know!

they portray Christianity as a "do nothing, lawless, easy grace" construct.

Nope.
That's the Mormon STRAW-MAN version of Christianity.

That is how Mormons MISREPRESENT Christianity, in much the same way that some people talk about the Mormon concept of "magic underwear".

I challenge you to quote ANY Christian who says to "live lawlessly".
I challenge you to quote ANY Christian who speaks of "easy grace", or "cheap grace".
These are CARICATURES invented by Mormons, and other enemies of Christianity.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
That’s what you’d like to think about Christian belief. Not the reality. No one has ever said it was “lawless” or “easy.” Those are your own words.
Curious. I wonder what Markk would say about that. Apparently, he slams mormonism for requiring something of it's members.
 

Markk

Active member
Curious. I wonder what Markk would say about that. Apparently, he slams mormonism for requiring something of it's members.
Aaron,

LDS doctrine or thought, what ever you want to call it demands that God can’t 100% save a person, it is basically a co op of sorts. And a member can’t even do their part without other members helping them. You can’t even become a member of the church without a PH help from other members.

Mag’s is talking Apples to Oranges here, if I am wrong she can correct me.

Why do you think it is that LDS doctrine teaches that Christian doctrines and creeds today, are an abomination and we have no authority…and yet most Mormons that come to forums like this one want the LDS faith to be recognized as mainstream Christian? They are even embarrassed of the name Mormon.

I suppose it is a good think in that Mormonism is assimilating towards Christianity, but it is a interesting “as assimilation.”
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Well, you have obviously never studied at a well balanced Christian fellowship.
Actually, I have.
I think what you wrote here shows how you do not have a understanding of who, so to speak, owns Grace.
Based on what? All you've told me is how anything that requires anything of man is EARNING salvation. Obedience, in your mind, is an awful thing.
God owns and offers His Grace, it is not our to earn and buy, it is His and it is offered freely…He is the one that took on our sins, suffered, spit, stabbed, and fed vile.
Yep. Part of the gift he offers us, we just have to receive it.
It was not Easy, what is easy is His Yoke when we obey His commandments. When we don’t our Christian walk is a tough row to sow.
Obedience to his commandments, Markk? Really? Isn't that watered down?

Gotta love the double standard. When Mormons have faith (first principle of the gospel) they're BUYING salvation, but when Christians have faith or obey, they're simply taking upon them the yoke of Christ. What's the difference?

This is a joke my friend. My pain tolerance of your condescension and stupidity has been reached.
I don't think there's anything that's going to change your mind, and there's no reason for me to take this abuse, so...I'm out.
Peace!
 

Markk

Active member
Actually, I have.

Based on what? All you've told me is how anything that requires anything of man is EARNING salvation. Obedience, in your mind, is an awful thing.

Yep. Part of the gift he offers us, we just have to receive it.

Obedience to his commandments, Markk? Really? Isn't that watered down?

Gotta love the double standard. When Mormons have faith (first principle of the gospel) they're BUYING salvation, but when Christians have faith or obey, they're simply taking upon them the yoke of Christ. What's the difference?

This is a joke my friend. My pain tolerance of your condescension and stupidity has been reached.
I don't think there's anything that's going to change your mind, and there's no reason for me to take this abuse, so...I'm out.
Peace!
It not abuse Aaron…you want me to say what you believe is true and alright, but IMO it isn’t. I’m sorry I can’t do that.

Your last three posts or so are nothing more that what BoJ does, just ad hom is style with no thought whatsoever. I can see that, and you know it.

Take a break, and so will I and lets see what happens In a week or two. I’m getting burned out anyways. I have a lot of reading to catch upon.

I’m sorry if I sound condescending, it is not my intent.

Take care.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
The LDS church teaches there are three levels in the CK…

The highest is for God and exalted married members, the lowest is for non married members that will be servants…the second level has not been revealed…until today! It is for resurrected beings that can die if the want too!
:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
You spend an awful lot of effort reading into text what's not there.
In all honestly and being serious…what a mess.
Yes. I will agree, the collection of ideas you have amassed is a mess. Your understanding of them is even worse. No wonder you left the church.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
if you were following …the highest level is were HF is according to LDS theology, that is Celestial Glory.
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Yes. what a mess you've managed to create.
To have a body and Glory like God, a body that is a capable of reproduction and sexual intercourse with as many virgins as they would like to marry in this life and I assume afterwards. Lower level citizens will not be able to have sex or reproduce…who knows maybe they would have private parts? That is no way a celestial body and glory.
Based on what you assume? CFR to have a body and glory like God we have to be exalted. Where did you get that?
Your are saying that people pass through the different kingdoms, which I ask for a reference. I stated after the judgement, one receives the estate the merit.
CFR where do you get the idea that one receives the estate they merit?
BoJ has stated that existing spirits basically roam or hang around and and come and ask heavenly parents of help t become mortal by getting a mortal body,
I never said any such thing.
now he is asserting that some of “newborn“ “offspring” can choose to die.
This is what Brigham Young taught in his Adam God doctrine. He was quite clear that Adam and Eve were not made from clay but were born just like we were born. Now, I ask you, where do you think they were raised? Joseph Smith tells us in Section 130 of the D&C.

These are not hard things to figure out. You have made a mountain out of your own imagination and because I disagree with your take on things, you think making fun of it adds weight to your argument. :rolleyes:
I don’t believe orthodox LDS theology as taught, and then I see self proclaimed TBM’s teaching weird things like this
It's only weird because you believe you know more about what we believe than we do. And, of course, it doesn't matter that that is impossible, you still believe it.
I just have to wonder what is going on in the church today?
Well, now you know.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
*Sigh*
Yeah, lowest CK probably won't be able to reproduce.
But, it's a body that can dwell in the presence of God, so it's different than a terrestrial body, so it's justifiably a body type all its own.
I don't think there's enough taught on the subject to know either way.
We all get the body that we had on this earth, only glorified and perfected. Everyone will have functioning body parts. No one said that no one but the highest degree of glory could have sex. That's just ridiculous but I'm sure that some thinkers are trying to figure out how God is going to stop everyone else from making babies and the answer is easy. If there is no spirit the baby will be born without the breath of life. Ocam's Razor. There's no need to remove body parts to prevent continuing the seeds. It just won't happen because it can't happen. There's no reason for anything else to change. That does not mean that women will not get pregnant. Their children will be stillborn and eventually, I think very quickly, that will stop. The women will not let that happen. This is just my opinion, but I think it's far more credible than God removing sex organs to keep sex from even happening. That's just a really dumb idea and totally goes against free agency.

As for glory, that is not a body type but the amount of light we are clothed in. When Moses descended from the mountain after spending 40 days and nights with God, his face shown and it made the people afraid. As I understand it, our bodies, though flesh and bone will be filled with light and will be a source of light - the same light that is typical of angelic manifestations we sometimes read about where the room fills with light. However, the glory of a celestial being us so bright that we could not even look upon him or her and live unless we were conditioned/protected. This would explain Paul's description of his visit to the 3rd heaven - being in or out of the body, he couldn't tell.

All Celestial inhabitants will have that kind of body. It has nothing to do with continuing the seeds. They will not continue the seeds because they have no wife or husband and will not commit adultery or anything like it because they are perfect beings and sin and the will to sin is behind them.

In our effort to understand or to guess what the next life will be like, we need to keep it simple and within the context of the scriptures which clearly state that the sociality there will be the same as it is here. We have children here. They will have children there. It's a no-brainer. Everyone there will have a celestial body. Celestial bodies do not have special apparatuses that allow having children. We aren't borg. We will continue to have free agency. And we will continue to function there as we do here.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
And I gave you references.
Now you're adding the requirement "after judgment". That's a great question. When exactly is judgment? I'm not sure.
I think once it's determined that a person will no longer progress, that when judgment occurs.
I would modify it a little and say when they are not longer willing to progress.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
it is not the body that God has according to LDS thought
according to your thought which has nothing to do with LDS thought.
it is a servants body
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: Will they wear maids' outfits? :rolleyes:
one that can not reproduce, and I assume a spIrit. You tell me?
why? you haven't believed anything we've said so far. You keep twisting it and making it something other than what we said.
It’s all alike and making sense of a lie is impossible…
Again, it's not a lie unless the people telling it knows the truth and didn't tell the truth.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I am really curious to see if you understand what this is saying.
It's pretty clear that "this saying" doesn't say when the judgment will occur. It says, after mortal life, so we can assume that sometime after we die, we'll be judged, but it's hard really comprehend what it means that the person will know, I mean really know the gospel of Jesus Christ and repent. But I'm sure it will be different for all of us. Some of us will be in the Celestial kingdom while others will still be learning the gospel and repenting. it isn't all going to happen at once.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I can't resolve contradictions if you can't identify them.
But we're in agreement - There's in actuality 7 degrees of heaven. The top three are considered "celestial".
God is #1, Angels are # 3
I can't resist. There are only three degrees of glory. Angels and priesthood holders and the gods all dwell in the Celestial kingdom. I don't know where you guys get the idea that God lives in a different part of the Celestial kingdom and that His body is any different that those who live in that kingdom.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
What I'm saying is - thanks to anti-Mormonism, leaders and members realize that salvation isn't a selfish endeavor.
:rolleyes:
It's not about what you receive, its about what you become.
It's not about what you become, it's about what you learn to be.:rolleyes:
It not abuse Aaron…you want me to say what you believe is true and alright, but IMO it isn’t. I’m sorry I can’t do that.
Well, at least we have here a bit of truth, you're arguing your opinion of what we believe and not facts. And, of course, in that world, you're always right even when you're wrong.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Maybe, but LDS theology applies limits to a logical interpretation, In other words Gods are exalted men and women, and they are the only ones that can reproduce Spirits.
I believe logic itself determines limits, not theology and nothing in LDS theology specifies that exalted men and women will reproduce spirits. They already exist. If one were to use logic, your assertion is false.
if you want to force two Adams into the AGT
It doesn't have to be forced, there are two Adams in Brigham Young's teachings.
BY taught the Adam that was on the earth, or as Watson puts it Adam jr…he was a exalted person who was created from th edict of another earth.
Brigham Young nor Watson nor myself have ever said that that the offspring of Father Adam was an exalted person. I have no idea where you got that. It's not something Brigham Young ever taught.
So Aaron, based on this,
based on your trapped imaginary interpretation? :rolleyes:
I see no wiggle room to say that a celestial body is not synonymous with the glorified body of a exalted person.
where, in any of these statements do you see anything about celestial or glorified bodies of an exalted person. Where, do you see anything that states that ONLY exalted beings will have that kind of body and no one else will? It seems evident that you just made that up.
If you want to argue that a celestial body is a generic term of all people in the CK’s different kingdoms, then you “own” the encounter argument and you need to explain how a person from the lower CK can reproduce, in that is where this argument started.
That has never been an argument, why would we need to explain something that we've never argued. Where do you get the idea that ONLY people with celestial bodies can have children?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Aaron, according to LDS theology there are three degrees of glory…the telestial glory, the terrestrial glory, and the celestial glory, there is also outer darkness. With in the celestial glory there is three levels…exalted individuals, kings and priests, kings and queen, Gods and Goddesses live in this highest estate…
It's not an estate. :rolleyes: The only difference between them as the exalted beings are married. No one can have a baby by themselves. Aside from that, there is literally no difference between them. They live in the same place. They all do essentially the same things. They can all do what all the others can do with the exception of having a family. Only married couples can have families. They don't live in a separate area. They live right there where God lives and have the past, present, and future continually before them. It's not really that complicated.
and men have the same power, knowledge, dominion, and “glory” as HF and Jesus.
They all have this. power, knowledge, dominion, and glory are not requirements to have children. :rolleyes:
Ministering angels will be in the third estate
No, they won't. There is no third estate. They will dwell in the Celestial Kingdom where God dwells, just like those who are married will. The difference between them has nothing to do with their body.
Ministering angels will be in the third estate, and will be servants to the highest estate. As far as I know, who will live in the second estate has not been disclosed, but sources close to me suggest it may be for Charles William Post (please google his name).
don't really care. It's pretty straightforward. Those who are baptized are eligible for the Celestial kingdom but they will have no priesthood authority. Those who receive the priesthood will have priesthood authority but cannot have children, like those who are only baptized and the final group are those who are married for eternity. I don't know where you get the idea that their bodies will not be the same.
It’s been awhile, and it might take awhile to find it, but I have read some LDS folks taught that there are different levels in the two lower degrees. It certainly wasn’t a standard teaching, but then yours and BoJ are not standard either.
Well, if it will waste more of your time, go find it. Then return and report. :rolleyes: Such information, like this argument is totally useless information made even worse by your complete scrambling of what we believe.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
I have read/listened to it several times…? What does he say in the talks that changes the context of the quote I pasted?
Aaron32 may argue against the stance of the church that Salvation is not free, but it's not an argument I would defend. The quote you offered clearly indicates that it's not free. If it was truly free, no one would have to do anything. They could murder, plunder, commit adutlery, and lie to their hearts content and they would be saved, but everyone, including atheists and non-Christians know it's not free. The only people that seem to think it is are the people who claim to be Christians. No, Salvation is very expensive.
 
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