The second level of the CK…new revelation!

Magdalena

Well-known member
Curious. I wonder what Markk would say about that. Apparently, he slams mormonism for requiring something of it's members.
We follow the things Christ told us about how to live, and it isn’t always easy. But we don’t do it to be saved. We do it because we are saved, and that’s the difference between real Christianity and mormonism.

Salvation is a gift. There is nothing you can do to get it.
 

Magdalena

Well-known member
Aaron32 may argue against the stance of the church that Salvation is not free, but it's not an argument I would defend. The quote you offered clearly indicates that it's not free. If it was truly free, no one would have to do anything. They could murder, plunder, commit adutlery, and lie to their hearts content and they would be saved, but everyone, including atheists and non-Christians know it's not free. The only people that seem to think it is are the people who claim to be Christians. No, Salvation is very expensive.
Salvation was very expensive for Christ. He gives it to us as a gift, because of His great love for us. When you truly understand that love and the immensity of the gift, you no longer have the desire to commit the things you talked about.

But the Mormon belief about earning salvation isn’t just about not committing sins, it’s about doing other works that are required by the church. That doesn’t come from Christ.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Aaron32 may argue against the stance of the church that Salvation is not free, but it's not an argument I would defend. The quote you offered clearly indicates that it's not free. If it was truly free, no one would have to do anything. They could murder, plunder, commit adutlery, and lie to their hearts content and they would be saved,

It's telling that only Mormons have this mindset, that if it doesn't effect their salvation, then they WANT to go and commit sin, and engage in wrong-doing. That says quite a bit about the evil in the Mormon church.

What Mormons apparently don't understand, because they've never experienced it, is that a true Christian has been REGENERATED by God, and God has taken out our heart of stone, that loves sin (Ezek. 11:19, 36:26), and replaced it with a heart of flesh that loves God and hates sin.

There's a saying in Christianity, that Christians "are free to do whatever they want".
And we can say that because we don't WANT to murder...
We don't WANT to commit adultery...
We don't WANT to steal.
We want to obey God's holiness. And that's why we refrain from sin.

Now if Mormons rationalize that salvation being a "free gift" means that they would go out and willingly commit sin all day every day, then that tells me that Mormons haven't been regenerated and converted by God, and/or they have a broken moral compass.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mik

Aaron32

Well-known member
We follow the things Christ told us about how to live, and it isn’t always easy. But we don’t do it to be saved. We do it because we are saved, and that’s the difference between real Christianity and mormonism.
I agree that point escapes many Mormons, but that's the point that's been missing in Markk's description as well - the mighty change of heart, actually obtaining a remission of sins, and having the pure love of Christ.

Mosiah 5:2
"And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually."

Alma 5;14:
"And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?"

Alma 13:12
Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

Helaman 15:7
"And behold, ye do know of yourselves, for ye have witnessed it, that as many of them as are brought to the knowledge of the truth, and to know of the wicked and abominable traditions of their fathers, and are led to believe the holy scriptures, yea, the prophecies of the holy prophets, which are written, which leadeth them to faith on the Lord, and unto repentance, which faith and repentance bringeth a change of heart unto them"

Ether 12:34
"And now I know that this love which thou hast had for the children of men is charity; wherefore, except men shall have charity they cannot inherit that place which thou hast prepared in the mansions of thy Father"

Moroni 10:21
"And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope"

Salvation is a gift. There is nothing you can do to get it.
I partially agree. Ultimately, all we can do is only qualify for the blessing through exercising faith in sincere repentance.
 

organgrinder

Well-known member
I agree that point escapes many Mormons, but that's the point that's been missing in Markk's description as well - the mighty change of heart, actually obtaining a remission of sins, and having the pure love of Christ.

Mosiah 5:2
"And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually."

Alma 5;14:
"And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?"

Alma 13:12
Now they, after being sanctified by the Holy Ghost, having their garments made white, being pure and spotless before God, could not look upon sin save it were with abhorrence; and there were many, exceedingly great many, who were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God.

Helaman 15:7
"And behold, ye do know of yourselves, for ye have witnessed it, that as many of them as are brought to the knowledge of the truth, and to know of the wicked and abominable traditions of their fathers, and are led to believe the holy scriptures, yea, the prophecies of the holy prophets, which are written, which leadeth them to faith on the Lord, and unto repentance, which faith and repentance bringeth a change of heart unto them"

Ether 12:34
"And now I know that this love which thou hast had for the children of men is charity; wherefore, except men shall have charity they cannot inherit that place which thou hast prepared in the mansions of thy Father"

Moroni 10:21
"And except ye have charity ye can in nowise be saved in the kingdom of God; neither can ye be saved in the kingdom of God if ye have not faith; neither can ye if ye have no hope"


I partially agree. Ultimately, all we can do is only qualify for the blessing through exercising faith in sincere repentance.
Why not wholly agree? Salvation is a free gift available to all to repent and believe. There are no qualification. You either do or you don't. Your statement hints at something more is needed other than what Romans 10:9-12 say. Qualifications sounds like a check list of dos and don'ts. Is that what you are intimating? I don't think so but just want to be clear on this.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Why not wholly agree? Salvation is a free gift available to all to repent and believe. There are no qualification. You either do or you don't. Your statement hints at something more is needed other than what Romans 10:9-12 say. Qualifications sounds like a check list of dos and don'ts. Is that what you are intimating? I don't think so but just want to be clear on this.
Because we believe men have free agency, and that the "self-existant" nature (like God) gives the power over our own destinies, while operating under eternal truth.

Thus, man has to decide to reconcile himself. He must submit to God's will, and God doesn't do that for him, it has to be an active choice on the behalf of man. Jesus recognized that men can only serve only 1 of 2 masters. (Matt 6:24)

Having said that, that doesn't mean man gets to that conclusion on his own. God will humble him, and give him his word to receive faith, but it must be received.

Similarly, Salvation is a gift, but it has to be received. If we are equally "yoked" with Christ, we are both working toward the sanctification of man.
But that doesn't take away the mercy, Grace or omnipotence of Christ. Before we can be sanctified, we must be justified, and justification occurs when we accept Christ - and if we accept Christ, that's witnessed by baptism. That's not a work to "earn" salvation, its a witness of our faith, (and the gateway into His Church).

2 Ne 10:
24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.
25 Wherefore, may God raise you from death by the power of the resurrection, and also from everlasting death by the power of the atonement, that ye may be received into the eternal kingdom of God, that ye may praise him through grace divine. Amen.

2 Ne 31:
4 Wherefore, I would that ye should remember that I have spoken unto you concerning that prophet which the Lord showed unto me, that should baptize the Lamb of God, which should take away the sins of the world.
5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfil all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!
6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water?
7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.
9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.
10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?

I know people don't like us quoting James 2, but if Romans 10:9-12 is the primary reference of all that's required, I'd say James 2 is a good balancing reference. We still need to walk in the works God ordained for us (Eph 2:10).
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Similarly, Salvation is a gift, but it has to be received.

That's simply not Biblical.
If an unconscious man gets a heart transplant, he didn't have to "give permission" to "receive" it.

If I put money in your bank account, you didn't have to "choose" to receive it.

If someone is in jail under bond, and I pay the bond, the person didn't have to "receive" the bond.

I know people don't like us quoting James 2, but if Romans 10:9-12 is the primary reference of all that's required, I'd say James 2 is a good balancing reference. We still need to walk in the works God ordained for us (Eph 2:10).

But Eph. 2:10 refers to works done AFTER we are saved, not about "receiving the gift".
And James 2 is talking about a "dead" faith, so it's not even talking about works for salvation. It (again) is talking about works being the RESULT of saving faith.

As usual, Mormons CONSTANTLY ignore Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc. etc.

This is standard M.O. for Mormons... Instead of quoting and addressing ALL the passages on a particular topic (eg. "works"), they only quote ONE verse that they think teaches the doctrine they WANT to believe, and simply IGNORE all the rest.
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
That's simply not Biblical.
If an unconscious man gets a heart transplant, he didn't have to "give permission" to "receive" it.

If I put money in your bank account, you didn't have to "choose" to receive it.

If someone is in jail under bond, and I pay the bond, the person didn't have to "receive" the bond.
So when does Romans 10:9-12 fit into the sequence of events regarding "becoming saved"?

But Eph. 2:10 refers to works done AFTER we are saved, not about "receiving the gift".
And James 2 is talking about a "dead" faith, so it's not even talking about works for salvation. It (again) is talking about works being the RESULT of saving faith.
Agreed. I don't dispute that.
But if we ARE saved, we desire to keep the commandments, correct? If we didn't, then wouldn't you question if the person is actually saved?

As usual, Mormons CONSTANTLY ignore Eph. 2:8-9, Tit. 3:5, 2 Tim. 1:9, Rom. 4:1-5, Rom. 11:5-6, etc. etc. etc.

This is standard M.O. for Mormons... Instead of quoting and addressing ALL the passages on a particular topic (eg. "works"), they only quote ONE verse that they think teaches the doctrine they WANT to believe, and simply IGNORE all the rest.
So, what am I missing?
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
It's telling that only Mormons have this mindset
I appreciate your effort to appeal to the universe, but the fact is, you don't know that.
that if it doesn't effect their salvation
The problem is if it does affect their salvation then that salvation is works-based.
then they WANT to go and commit sin, and engage in wrong-doing.
So, the saved person must do something different than those who are not saved. I realize that no reasonable person believes that they won't be held accountable for their evil works just because they said they believe in God. Unfortunately, I continue to find non-Mormon Christians who condone or justify their evil works in the name of their religion.

In addition to this, our critics refuse to admit that their works have anything to do with their salvation when, as we can see by your statements, it clearly has everything to do with one's salvation. Repentance is the process of reconciling ourselves to God and if we are not reconciled to God, then we cannot be saved.
What Mormons apparently don't understand, because they've never experienced it, is that a true Christian has been REGENERATED by God, and God has taken out our heart of stone, that loves sin (Ezek. 11:19, 36:26), and replaced it with a heart of flesh that loves God and hates sin.
And that is simply not true. I have never met a Christian that hates sin. The only time they hate sin is when it's been committed against them which is a typical "heart of stone" reaction. So, I'm sorry, I just don't buy your claim.
There's a saying in Christianity, that Christians "are free to do whatever they want".
And we can say that because we don't WANT to murder...
We don't WANT to commit adultery...
We don't WANT to steal.
We want to obey God's holiness. And that's why we refrain from sin.
And yet, they keep doing it. 50% of our jails are filled with Christians who keep doing it. :rolleyes:
Now if Mormons rationalize that salvation being a "free gift" means that they would go out and willingly commit sin all day every day
Ahh, but we don't normalize your idea of Salvation because it isn't free. It's extremely expensive. Perhaps, the most expensive of all the gifts of God. Being saved from Adam's transgression was free. The grave, through the atonement of Jesus Christ, has no power over any of us. We will all be resurrected in our perfected body never to die again.

That was free. No one had to do anything but be born to get that. But Salvation, that's not free. So, since your premise is false, so is your conclusion, but it does appear to be the result of faith-alone theology.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
So now you admit 3 degrees of the CK exist? Well, that's progress. Regardless of what BoJ said, he certainly was successful in moving the Overton Window.
Good job, BoJ!
Markk did not say the 3 levels of heaven actually exist, only that your church teaches it. There is a difference.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I wasn't accusing Markk of actually believing it, we were debating mormon doctrine.
Okay, but your wording made it sound as if you did: "So now you admit 3 degrees of the CK exist? Well, that's progress." I suspect you meant that he admits that your church TEACHES 3 degrees of the CK exist. However, so far as I know, Theo knew that already. :)
 

Aaron32

Well-known member
Okay, but your wording made it sound as if you did: "So now you admit 3 degrees of the CK exist? Well, that's progress." I suspect you meant that he admits that your church TEACHES 3 degrees of the CK exist. However, so far as I know, Theo knew that already. :)
It was a very long discussion with Markk making the argument that only gods received celestial bodies, but angels didn't. I kept telling him there were 3 degrees of glory in the celestial kingdom. Eventually, he came around.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
We follow the things Christ told us about how to live, and it isn’t always easy. But we don’t do it to be saved.
😂😂😂😂
This always cracks me up. I believe we've already established that if one doesn't "follow the things Christ told us about how to live" that one cannot possibly be saved. If this is the case, then it doesn't really matter why one does it.

With statements like this, it should really be easy to see that the only people who can honestly say they don't do it to be saved are those who don't believe that God exists, much less that he will save them.

Who is the better person, the one who says he will follow Christ's teachings and then doesn't or the one who refuses but then does? Atheists are not ignorant of Christ's teachings.
We do it because we are saved
🙄 Uh huh.
Salvation is a gift.
True. It is a gift. It's just not free.
There is nothing you can do to get it.
That is blatantly false. If u do nothing, u can't be saved.
 

brotherofJared

Well-known member
Salvation was very expensive for Christ. He gives it to us as a gift, because of His great love for us
It is a gift that our sins can be forgiven such that it will be as if there was no sin. Not only for us but to heal the wounded as well. And it was very expensive for Christ but I find it stupifying why you all believe u don't have to do anything to obtain his advocacy. If that were true then everyone would be saved.
When you truly understand that love and the immensity of the gift, you no longer have the desire to commit the things you talked about.
😂
I have been a witness to numerous so-called Christians who claim this gift while abusing the commandments with impunity. Can anyone perfectly keep the commandments? Do they honor father and mother? Do they bear false witness? Is the desire to break these commandments gone or do they justify away the reason to keep them? My experience has been the latter which I believe is the broken foundation of modern Christian teachings.

It's a feel good statement but it is logically meaningless. Everyone knows that to be saved we have to do something.
But the Mormon belief about earning salvation isn’t just about not committing sins
False. No matter what other things we do, none of them can save us except we keep the commandments.
it’s about doing other works that are required by the church. That doesn’t come from Christ.
Sorry, but they do come from Christ. He said, no one can see/enter the kingdom of God except they are born of the water and the spirit. This, Christ himself showed us how to do. This is clearly baptism and the gift of the holy ghost. This, however, by itself will not save a single soul. Following Christ will. Jesus also clearly taught this message to his disciples after the rich man departed in sorrow.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
True. It is a gift. It's just not free.

From dictionary.com:

Gift: something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.


So tell us, BoJ... How much do your parents charge you for your birthday presents and Christmas presents?

That is blatantly false. If u do nothing, u can't be saved.

Maybe according to Mormonism, but not according to Jesus.
 

Richard7

Active member
LOL, when did I ever deny it? if you were following …the highest level is were HF is according to LDS theology, that is Celestial Glory. To have a body and Glory like God, a body that is a capable of reproduction and sexual intercourse with as many virgins as they would like to marry in this life and I assume afterwards. Lower level citizens will not be able to have sex or reproduce…who knows maybe they would have private parts? That is no way a celestial body and glory.

Your are saying that people pass through the different kingdoms, which I ask for a reference. I stated after the judgement, one receives the estate the merit.

But to not derail this thread….BoJ has stated that existing spirits basically roam or hang around and and come and ask heavenly parents of help t become mortal by getting a mortal body, and now he is asserting that some of “newborn“ “offspring” can choose to die.

I don’t believe orthodox LDS theology as taught, and then I see self proclaimed TBM’s teaching weird things like this. I just have to wonder what is going on in the church today?

There was a member here a while back named Ralf, I asked him what his wife thought about him becoming a God. And taking on multiple wife’….Ralf actually let his wife respond, and she told us here that “ if Ralf is about with his other wives, creating worlds, and she was lonely, she would just go to HF and ask him if she could have another husband.

Aaron…what is going on?
Chuckle, my wife was only playing with you.... your above comment about reproduction and sexual intercourse is not doctrine.... source it for me if you can...

Richard/Ralf.
 

Janice Bower

Active member
LOL…yes this is certainly in left field…but I am expounding on left field doctrine..LOL, this genuinely made me laugh…thanks

Look, this is a Christian site, and I am limited in what I can say…but lets say according to LDS theology, HF has certain body parts that allow sexual behavior, and reproduction. He and his wives have reproductive organs. In the lower CK, that is not possible, they are not married…so I have to assume that men (and women) is this level of the CK are missing something. The context where this argument started was in context with these celestial folks reproducing, either on heaven or earth.

So you explain to me, how a person without reproductive organs, can have a true celestial body, the body that God has? If it is a celestial body, what is the body of God and those that are exalted?

"PROCREATION LIMITED TO CELESTIAL BODIES. Some will gain celestial bodies with all the powers of exaltation and eternal increase."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 287

Why would any resurrected Mormon without a celestial body be in the Celestial Kingdom?
 

Richard7

Active member
"PROCREATION LIMITED TO CELESTIAL BODIES. Some will gain celestial bodies with all the powers of exaltation and eternal increase."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 2, p. 287

Why would any resurrected Mormon without a celestial body be in the Celestial Kingdom?
Wrong page or wrong volume .... not sure where you got that quote...
 
Top