The Sheep were never goats, but always Sheep !

brightfame52

Well-known member
The misconception these days from many people is that Christs Sheep, those He laid down His Life for John 10 were prior to faith or believing they were goats. Couldn't be further from the truth ! Nor was the Wheat ever a tare. Remember Jesus words Matt 13:24-30. Neither were the Children of God ever the children of the devil.

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matt 13:36-43

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The misconception these days from many people is that Christs Sheep, those He laid down His Life for John 10 were prior to faith or believing they were goats. Couldn't be further from the truth ! Nor was the Wheat ever a tare. Remember Jesus words Matt 13:24-30. Neither were the Children of God ever the children of the devil.


Matt 13:36-43
Not one thing there shows unbelievers are his sheep

all you did is claim tares (unbelievers) are wheat (believers)
 
The misconception these days from many people is that Christs Sheep, those He laid down His Life for John 10 were prior to faith or believing they were goats. Couldn't be further from the truth ! Nor was the Wheat ever a tare. Remember Jesus words Matt 13:24-30. Neither were the Children of God ever the children of the devil.


Matt 13:36-43
Are you sure about that? If branches were broken off of the olive tree, and you and I being wild olive branches were taken and grafted in to the cultivated tree in their place because of our faith, then I don't see any biblical reason to suppose that goats cannot become sheep.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Are you sure about that? If branches were broken off of the olive tree, and you and I being wild olive branches were taken and grafted in to the cultivated tree in their place because of our faith, then I don't see any biblical reason to suppose that goats cannot become sheep.
Yes, absolutely !
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Are you sure about that? If branches were broken off of the olive tree, and you and I being wild olive branches were taken and grafted in to the cultivated tree in their place because of our faith, then I don't see any biblical reason to suppose that goats cannot become sheep.

um....?

That's like saying, "If it's sunny on some days, and cloudy on others, then I don't see any reason why snow can be solid at 100 degrees Celsius....


Are you ASSUMING that "being attached to the root" is equivalent to "sheep", and "being unattached" is equivalent to "goats"?

If so, it might be a good idea for you to try to JUSTIFY your assumption.
 
um....?

That's like saying, "If it's sunny on some days, and cloudy on others, then I don't see any reason why snow can be solid at 100 degrees Celsius....


Are you ASSUMING that "being attached to the root" is equivalent to "sheep", and "being unattached" is equivalent to "goats"?

If so, it might be a good idea for you to try to JUSTIFY your assumption.
"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." (John 10:16)

If the sheep "not of this fold" are to be understood as believing Gentiles, then it would fit with the analogy in Romans 11 of wild olive branches being grafted in to the cultivated olive tree.

To be honest I don't think that Scripture explicitly equates the two analogies, but I don't think it explicitly differentiates between them either. I think the two passages I referenced give credibility to my original assumption. But it is an assumption, and it might be a wrong one; but I think it's quite a reasonable one.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
"And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." (John 10:16)

If the sheep "not of this fold" are to be understood as believing Gentiles, then it would fit with the analogy in Romans 11 of wild olive branches being grafted in to the cultivated olive tree.

To be honest I don't think that Scripture explicitly equates the two analogies, but I don't think it explicitly differentiates between them either. I think the two passages I referenced give credibility to my original assumption. But it is an assumption, and it might be a wrong one; but I think it's quite a reasonable one.

Can you show me a goat in nature that has ever turned into a sheep?
 
Can you show me a goat in nature that has ever turned into a sheep?
I'll do even better than that; I'll show you where a child of wrath by nature becomes an object of mercy.

"...among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others...But God, who is rich in mercy...made us alive together with Christ." (Eph. 2:3-5)
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I'll do even better than that; I'll show you where a child of wrath by nature becomes an object of mercy.

"...among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others...But God, who is rich in mercy...made us alive together with Christ." (Eph. 2:3-5)

That's not what I asked you.

I'll conclude that you can't demonstrate a goat "becoming" a sheep, either in nature, or in the Bible.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I'll do even better than that; I'll show you where a child of wrath by nature becomes an object of mercy.

"...among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others...But God, who is rich in mercy...made us alive together with Christ." (Eph. 2:3-5)
Amen

Eph. 2:3–8 —KJV
“Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
¶ But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
I'll do even better than that; I'll show you where a child of wrath by nature becomes an object of mercy.

"...among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others...But God, who is rich in mercy...made us alive together with Christ." (Eph. 2:3-5)
That is false. The child of wrath by nature is a vessel of Mercy even as a child of wrath by nature.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That is false. The child of wrath by nature is a vessel of Mercy even as a child of wrath by nature.
Scripture is false ?

...among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others...But God, who is rich in mercy...made us alive together with Christ." (Eph. 2:3-5)
I'll do even better than that; I'll show you where a child of wrath by nature becomes an object of mercy.

"...among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others...But God, who is rich in mercy...made us alive together with Christ." (Eph. 2:3-5)
And a child of wrath becomes a child of God
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Are you sure about that? If branches were broken off of the olive tree, and you and I being wild olive branches were taken and grafted in to the cultivated tree in their place because of our faith, then I don't see any biblical reason to suppose that goats cannot become sheep.
He is misusing Biblical figurative language. For instance, the separating of the sheep and goats happens at judgement, These animals represent the condition of people at judgement. There is nothing in the parable that allows us to extend that previous to judgement. It is metaphoric and only concerned about that event.
Something to notice, sheep are often used in metaphors to illustrate different points because those people were farmers and shepherds and knew these animals. The actual point of the sheep and goats is one we miss because of our ignorance. Apparently these sheep and goats were hard to tell apart unless you were an expert. But at judgement God knows which are which,
 
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