The Sheep were never goats, but always Sheep !

shnarkle

Well-known member
Okay, I didn't notice at first; I thought you were doing pretty good...
To be perfectly blunt, I have no idea where I'm coming from or where I'm going. All denominations, labels, titles, degrees, etc. mean nothing to me anymore. They are useless and lifeless.

What little I know of the bible makes perfect sense to me, yet, despite their protestations to the contrary; I cannot call myself a Christian because I don't know a single professing Christian who follows Christ. Perhaps there are some, maybe no more than a dozen. Regardless, if countless thousands are aren't actually following Christ, or even proclaiming the gospel, I can't pretend to be one, even if I'm no different than them.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
joe


Absolutely !



I could not agree more 1 Tim 1:13-16

13 who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.



Yes He will show all the vessels of mercy that type of mercy. Of course all are not vessels of mercy, for some are appointed vessels of wrath Rom 9


If that be the case, a Great Mercy indeed !
I started reading what you were responding to, and immediately saw that it was my post, then after I read the whole thing, I realized that I didn't write any of it. LOL. It amazes me how one person can articulate what is in the hearts of others.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
To be perfectly blunt, I have no idea where I'm coming from or where I'm going. All denominations, labels, titles, degrees, etc. mean nothing to me anymore. They are useless and lifeless.

What little I know of the bible makes perfect sense to me, yet, despite their protestations to the contrary; I cannot call myself a Christian because I don't know a single professing Christian who follows Christ. Perhaps there are some, maybe no more than a dozen. Regardless, if countless thousands are aren't actually following Christ, or even proclaiming the gospel, I can't pretend to be one, even if I'm no different than them.
Well you've come to the right place, we're glad you're here...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Snarkle stated
I'm not following. How does one express a contentless faith?



God gives you the ability to have faith he does not determine what you will place your faith in

What you place your faith in is the context of your faith


So God's sovereign will is dependent upon someone else's decisions?

Are you saying God cannot sovereignly allow free will ?

TomFL said:
Matt. 8:5 —KJV
“¶ And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,”


As i stated the centurion approached him


TomFL said:
Did he not decide to present his request to him ?
Do you think he had a choice? Why do you think it would have been a decision that required much deliberation? Does he want his servant to die? When people are desperate, they'll try just about anything, unless of course they have no faith to begin with.

Yes I do

Do you have any evidence to the contrary ?

TomFL said:
How does the father draw

John 6:45 —KJV
“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”

there is no irresistible grace here
It's here: "“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” Matt. 6:44

Nope you may argue for inability based on that verse but not irresistible grace

In any case that inability is met by the enablement of verse 45

Who did the father send him to? " He came unto his own" John 1:11

Did they choose him? We all know the answer to that question, and yet what does John say? "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the WILL of the flesh, nor of the WILL of man, but of God." John 1:13

Yeah all who received him were given the right to be children that is born ones (tekna) of God

that is regeneration

Yes they did choice to receive him

There are two choices here you confound as one

The Jews decision to receive him or not

God's decision to regenerate based upon reception of Christ


Who's will???


Already discussed

One will to receive Christ or not

God's will to regenerate

That is all of God





Did all the nations of the world have the choice to become God's chosen people, or Did God choose Israel? Did Israel have much of a choice in the matter? Look at them in bondage to Pharaoh, and then what choice do they have while they're standing at the foot of Mt. Sinai as God is thundering down his commandments.

"And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.” Exodus 20:20.

That just confounds service with salvation

You cannot just assume God choses to save in the manner he chose his servants

and of course most of those servant were not in fact saved
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
To be perfectly blunt, I have no idea where I'm coming from or where I'm going. All denominations, labels, titles, degrees, etc. mean nothing to me anymore. They are useless and lifeless.

I have to disagree.
You have a very diverse list of bullet-points there, and I have to wonder why some of them (eg. "degrees") are even there.

I believe "denominations" and "labels" are very useful, and I get the feeling that the RV is going to agree with me on this point. There are some people who think that all titles other than "Christian" are to be avoided. I kind of get where they're coming from, but since the term "Christian" is so ubiquitous, then if someone comes up to me and tells me they're "Christian", I still know almost NOTHING about them. I don't know whether they believe the Bible, where they believe that Christ is deity, whether they think the crucifixion actually happened, whether they think they are saved by faith or works, or even if they hold Christ in any regard. So in terms of conveying information, the term is completely lacking.

Contrast that with telling someone you're a "Baptist", or a "Roman Catholic", or a "Mormon", or a "Calvinist". These are FAR more precise and informative labels, in fact they are "code words" that stand for 10-20 doctrines. I know FAR more about what such a person believes, simply because of their label.

What little I know of the bible makes perfect sense to me, yet, despite their protestations to the contrary;

With all due respect, maybe part of the problem is "what little [you] know of the Bible".

I cannot call myself a Christian because I don't know a single professing Christian who follows Christ. Perhaps there are some, maybe no more than a dozen.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here.. Perhaps you mean that they disagree with your understanding of Christ's teachings. Well, there is an "orthodoxy" in Christian understanding, that Christians of various denominations agree upon.

Or perhaps you mean that they fail in their attempts to obey Christ's teachings. If that's the case, then the meaning of the term "Christian" is useless, since nobody can successfully and perfectly obey Christ. All Christians are hypocrites, in that we proclaim Christ's standard, yet we fail it ourselves. There is a saying:

"The church is not a museum for saints.
It is a hospital for sinners."

We don't attend church because we've "graduated" Christianity, and are "the best of the best". We attend church because we NEED the church. And even so, many have pointed out that we even act like hypocrites in church, in that we put on our "Sunday best", not only referring to clothes, but referring to our personalities". We put on a persona, to make others think we are "better" than we actually are. It's like the fact that there are many people on Facebook who you don't know at all, if all you know is how they present themselves on Facebook.

Regardless, if countless thousands are aren't actually following Christ, or even proclaiming the gospel, I can't pretend to be one, even if I'm no different than them.

That sentence reads as if you meant to say something different, so maybe I'll be responded to a comment you didn't intend. Surely if you consider yourself no different than them, then you should hold yourself to the same standard that you hold them to.

But as I said, there is a core group of doctrines which define orthodoxy, which have been around for 2000 years. As long as we hold to those, and extending from those we sincerely try to understand and follow the teachings of Christ, and act charitably, I believe that warrants us taking the name "Christian" upon ourselves. Whether all those who do so are truly saved is a different question, of course...
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Only idolaters place their faith in an object. The faith OF Christ is his faith, not anyone else's. This is no great secret, but then it is to those who refuse to accept it. Christ has to objectively leave that he may send the Comforter to subjectively indwell within them. Only then are they able to manifest God's will systemically rather than trying to understand what Jesus was saying and carrying it out to the best of their ability.
Except we are told to believe on Christ

Christ as an object of faith is not idolatry

And as for your claim

Gal. 2:16 —KJV
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

One we have in the verse a clear statement bolded

even we have believed in Jesus Christ

showing Christ as the object of faith

as seen in many verses


John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Christ is the object of faith

One is to place their faith in him

“The two ways of getting right with God are here set forth: by faith in Christ Jesus (objective genitive), by the works of the law (by keeping all the law in the most minute fashion,”

(A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Accordance electronic ed. (Altamonte Springs: OakTree Software, 2001), paragraph 4448.)
 

Joe

Active member
Now no one stated faith is just a decision

I do say faith is more than mere knowledge and calls for a commitment

I am fairly sure most have heard true faith effects the mind, the emotions and the will

Faith comes before decision. Without faith there is no decision.

In the case of faith in Christ, God calls us, which is the drawing-dragging to live in faith of His Son. God gives faith and brings us to living by faith.

I do not disagree that our will is involved, but it is secondary to the primary cause of faith that came from God's Spirit through personal conviction.

God bless
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Faith comes before decision. Without faith there is no decision.

In the case of faith in Christ, God calls us, which is the drawing-dragging to live in faith of His Son. God gives faith and brings us to living by faith.

I do not disagree that our will is involved, but it is secondary to the primary cause of faith that came from God's Spirit through personal conviction.

God bless
Yes, we have Faith the Condemning Law of God is true, before we have Faith in Jesus Christ as our LORD and Savior...

Where does that Faith come from? An Atheist hears they're a Sinner, and all of the sudden they believe it??
 
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shnarkle

Well-known member
I have to disagree.
You have a very diverse list of bullet-points there, and I have to wonder why some of them (eg. "degrees") are even there.
Because all of them are useless. These terms are heavy laden with pointless baggage that does more to confuse than clarify.
if someone comes up to me and tells me they're "Christian", I still know almost NOTHING about them.
So far so good...
Contrast that with telling someone you're a "Baptist", or a "Roman Catholic", or a "Mormon", or a "Calvinist". These are FAR more precise and informative labels, in fact they are "code words" that stand for 10-20 doctrines.
Ah, here's where the crux of the problem lies.
I know FAR more about what such a person believes, simply because of their label.
Yes, and you still know practically nothing about who they are in Christ, or if they're even in Christ.
With all due respect, maybe part of the problem is "what little [you] know of the Bible".
With all due respect maybe part of the problem is in not viewing the whole sentence together. Then again, I may have been lazy with my punctuation. I'll have to look at it again myself.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here..
It's a sentence that has to be viewed as a whole. I must confess that I sometimes compose my thoughts based upon what I've been reading, and sometimes I'm not reading English. I tried to force two ideas into one sentence. Here's what I posted: "
What little I know of the bible makes perfect sense to me, yet, despite their protestations to the contrary; I cannot call myself a Christian because I don't know a single professing Christian who follows Christ.
I don't know a single professing Christian who follows Christ, and I cannot call myself a Christian because I don't believe in most of their doctrines. Some protest that they're not followers of Christ, and some protest my claim that I'm not a Christian. Atheists will protest the claim that I'm not a Christian as well, but they retain the original intent which is as a term of derision. In the former case, I take it as a testament to my inability to communicate. In the latter case, I take it as a form of flattery in that they're just triggered because they can't refute me using their own arguments against them.

Perhaps you mean that they disagree with your understanding of Christ's teachings.

That too.
Well, there is an "orthodoxy" in Christian understanding, that Christians of various denominations agree upon.

Agreed, yet Christ didn't come to convey orthodox understanding. That's where I diverge from orthodox Christianity.
Or perhaps you mean that they fail in their attempts to obey Christ's teachings.
Not just that they fail, but they fail to see the blatant contradiction in their teachings. They see Christ say, "Go and sin no more", but they hear, "Go and sin some more" It isn't just that they fail in their attempts to obey, but they don't see that to make the attempt is to fail and that can only happen under the Old Covenant. Hebrews 9:15 Christ covers only those sins committed under the Old Covenant. If we sin, we better hope we're still under the Old Covenant, and can still rely upon Christ to cover our sins.
If that's the case, then the meaning of the term "Christian" is useless, since nobody can successfully and perfectly obey Christ.

Here again, this is where the bible refutes that claim; e.g. "All things are possible with God except keeping his commandments" It doesn't have that, does it? There are plenty of places where the bible points out that those who abide in Christ simply cease to sin anymore. The whole purpose of the New Covenant is that "they keep MY (i.e. God's ) commandments" If a new covenant is based upon something better than what preceded it, then to return to the parameters of the Old Covenant doesn't make any sense at all. This is precisely what Christians do. The new covenant is explicitly to keep God's commandments. Why couldn't they be kept under the Old Covenant? Because it was by "will and effort" Roman 9:16. Whereas the New Covenant is according to God's promise according to his will by the power of Christ's spirit indwelling in that new heart God gave them for the explicit and expressed purpose of keeping His law. Does God break is promises? Is it possible for there to be any sin in Christ? I get tired of Christians claiming that they're in Christ, yet continue to sin because they're not perfect. The new creation IS perfect from the inside out. They simply can't sin because they were not created with that ability.

Paul points out a fundamental facet of the Mosaic law when he says that those who sin intentionally have no recourse to sacrifice. That was always the case, but under the New Covenant, it takes on a whole new meaning because there are only two options. 1. Either the new creation can't sin, or 2. they are eternally damned if they do.
All Christians are hypocrites, in that we proclaim Christ's standard, yet we fail it ourselves.

You don't seem to understand the meaning of the term. One cannot be a hypocrite if they know they are a hypocrite. It's one of those paradoxes that can drive some people crazy. All Christians don't understand what their own bible explicitly states in Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26; and Hebrews 8:9,10 which is that God creates a new covenant with Israel and Judah whereby He will give them a new heart for the expressed purpose of keeping his commandments.

With this in mind, it makes no sense to claim that one is in the new covenant, and simultaneously claim that they continue to knowingly sin. The elect cannot be deceived by the arch fiend of hell, yet they can intentionally sin? it makes no sense.
There is a saying:

"The church is not a museum for saints.
It is a hospital for sinners."

We don't attend church because we've "graduated" Christianity, and are "the best of the best". We attend church because we NEED the church. And even so, many have pointed out that we even act like hypocrites in church, in that we put on our "Sunday best", not only referring to clothes, but referring to our personalities". We put on a persona, to make others think we are "better" than we actually are. It's like the fact that there are many people on Facebook who you don't know at all, if all you know is how they present themselves on Facebook.

There are also those who glory in their faults and foibles. not in the sin itself, but in confessing their sins to whoever is willing to listen, it's like a spiritual episode of Maury Povich, or or any of those other guys who bring freaks out for their 15 minutes of fame
That sentence reads as if you meant to say something different, so maybe I'll be responded to a comment you didn't intend. Surely if you consider yourself no different than them, then you should hold yourself to the same standard that you hold them to.

I'm holding myself to a higher standard that they are. I am no different than them as a person. I am completely different as far as doctrine goes. I simply can't be a Christian because I don't believe what they believe. There are no churches that would ever accept me because they all require me to acknowledge their false doctrines as if they're true. These doctrines are not just untrue, they are contradictory. They are refuted by reality.
But as I said, there is a core group of doctrines which define orthodoxy, which have been around for 2000 years. As long as we hold to those, and extending from those we sincerely try to understand and follow the teachings of Christ, and act charitably, I believe that warrants us taking the name "Christian" upon ourselves.

I couldn't agree more.
Whether all those who do so are truly saved is a different question, of course...
A point I would also agree with in regards to being able to glean any information from titles as well. I've met Jehovah's Witnesses that were just about the nicest people you could possibly meet, yet they adhere to doctrines that are completely incoherent. I've listened to Mormon elders who are clearly not just well educated, but extremely intelligent proclaim belief in blatant contradictory statements. I've debated professors of Patristic studies, as well as professors with PhD's in Latin and Greek who can't help but inject Christian doctrine into a discussion of elementary Greek grammar. In the final analysis, these terms not only confuse, they serve to place people into a box or collective, a club. They serve as a means of identification, but never an identity in Christ.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Except we are told to believe on Christ

Christ as an object of faith is not idolatry
It most certainly is, especially if you don't follow what he teaches. Then you don't have faith to begin with. You just have faith in him as an object to have faith in. It's pointless.
And as for your claim

Gal. 2:16 —KJV
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

I already addressed this and refuted it.
 

Sethproton

Well-known member
Paul tells us in Romans..."For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened." (Rom 1:18-21)

Man is aware that God exists. Whether they acknowledge it or not does not mean they are without excuse.

Now if a man has faith in what God says, then that one will believe in Jesus Christ too. "It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me" (Joh 6:45)

You cannot equate confidentially trusting Jesus from a decision. It goes way beyond that. It is a trust that comes from the Living Word of God and by His Spirit. I dare say that any man who has not been drawn-dragged by convictions from God's Word and His Spirit to Jesus Christ and professes belief based upon decision is lost.

God bless
Why did you respond to my post but not address the point i made? There is more than one kind of faith.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Snarkle stated
I'm not following. How does one express a contentless faith?



God gives you the ability to have faith he does not determine what you will place your faith in
There's a recurring theme in your replies that ignores one very fundamental fact, i.e. one cannot choose what doesn't exist in the first place.

How can one hear the gospel if it isn't proclaimed to them? Unless or until that actually happens, they have NO CHOICE.

Do they still have free will? YES!!!!

Do they have the opportunity to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior? NOPE Not until they hear the gospel message.

It has to be revealed to them BEFORE they can choose it.

Are you with me so far? Can you agree with those fundamental points?
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
It most certainly is, especially if you don't follow what he teaches. Then you don't have faith to begin with. You just have faith in him as an object to have faith in. It's pointless.


I already addressed this and refuted it.
So shnarkle, since you said you know a little bit about the Bible, why not listen to some people here who are Pastors and Sunday School Teachers?
 
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Iconoclast

Active member
Well then you should follow James because you do not have a clue on how to interpret scripture

can you deny


...among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others...But God, who is rich in mercy...made us alive together with Christ." (Eph. 2:3-5)

And a child of wrath becomes a child of God

The child of wrath is termed a goat at judgment

The child of God a sheep

If the child of wrath was not converted he would be judged a goat

If converted a sheep
God chose all the sheep before the creation of this earth.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
So shnarkle, since you said you know a little bit about the Bible, why not listen to some people here who are Pastors and Sunday School Teachers?
I do, and I reply with scripture that they proceed to ignore. They're supposed to correct me with scripture, right? I've started a few threads already. Perhaps you'd care to check them out and address any errors you may find with scripture?

How to reconcile a notorious contradictory doctrine. | CARM Forums

The law verses the glory that was done away; the ministration of death | CARM Forums
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
I do, and I reply with scripture that they proceed to ignore. They're supposed to correct me with scripture, right? I've started a few threads already. Perhaps you'd care to check them out and address any errors you may find with scripture?

How to reconcile a notorious contradictory doctrine. | CARM Forums

The law verses the glory that was done away; the ministration of death | CARM Forums
I would recommend @TibiasDad to you. He's Tagged, so if he shows up, ask him a question and follow him as a Poster...

By the way, it's also legitimate for people to answer your question with Verses and Theology. A stand-Alone verse can mislead you. It's like the story of the person who opens the Bible and sticks his finger on a verse; it says 'Judas went out and hung himself'. The person opened the Bible and stuck his finger on another verse, and the verse said 'Go and do likewise'. Pretexting can mess you up...
 
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Joe

Active member
Why did you respond to my post but not address the point i made? There is more than one kind of faith.
Seth, I did answer your questions.

You asked a two part question: "Are you distinguishing between the faith to know God exists, which does not save you, and the faith that is entrusting yourself to Jesus?"

The first part of your question, "Are you distinguishing between the faith to know God exists"

My answer pointed to Romans 1:18-21. The Apostle Paul informs us that man is aware that God exists because God made man aware...."For what can be known about God is plain to them (man), because God has shown it to them."

Paul goes on to say, "they are without excuse"...This means man is without excuse saying they didn't know God exists. This means one does not need to have faith to know God exists. He has already given man the knowledge that He does. Read for yourself what Paul wrote in Romans 1:18-21.

As for your the second part of your question, "Are you distinguishing...the faith that is entrusting yourself to Jesus?"

My answer was, "Man already knows God exists for He has made us aware, so we do not need faith to know God exists, but, we do need to have faith in what God says. And if a man has faith in what God says, then that one will believe in Jesus Christ too. "It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me" (Joh 6:45)

Does this help?

God bless
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
I would recommend @TibiasDad to you. He's Tagged, so if he shows up, ask him a question and follow him as a Poster...

By the way, it's also legitimate for people to answer your question with Verses and Theology. A stand-Alone verse can mislead you. It's like the story of the person who opens the Bible and sticks his finger on a verse; it says 'Judas went out and hung himself'. The person opened the Bible and stuck his finger on another verse, and the verse said 'Go and do likewise'. Pretexting can mess you up...
So you're not interested in the links I posted? They're fairly straightforward threads. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to address them unless they didn't have a defense for their faith.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
So you're not interested in the links I posted? They're fairly straightforward threads. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to address them unless they didn't have a defense for their faith.
Sorry, I've been posting all day...

I am interested in you asking your questions to Pastors here like @TibiasDad ...
 
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