The Shroud of Turin...Incontrovertible Proof

You guys realize, I'm sure, that the Passover lamb is not a sacrifice for sins. It doesn't atone. It is merely a rememberence of those lambs that were eaten teh night of the exodus and the angel of death passing over.
I'm disappointed. This thread has nothing to do with the nature of the passover lamb that you clearly do not understand. This thread is about an actual snapshot, like a Live Photo made from the latest Apple camera, made with the motion involved in the first moment of the resurrection. The image is made with brilliant light that could not have been produced in the day the image was made without Supernatural Intentionality.

The shroud is irrefutable evidence that a crucified Man rose from the dead at a moment's time and in Jesus' day and hour.

Deal with refuting physical evidence, and leave the philosophy?theology for folks who understand the claims God made in the Tenach.

I'm wondering why our resident Jewish expert, @Jewjitzu doesn't seem interested in addressing physical evidence...he went after physical evidence with every faculty he possesses with the fake tomb discovery outside Jerusalem. Address a real artifact.
 
You do not realize that the lamb that was slain on Passover, without spot or blemish, was eaten, and the blood applied to the door to protect from death.

Those you wish to emulate are remembering that death passed over wherever the blood was applied.
Which has nothing to do with atoning for sins.
 
I'm disappointed. This thread has nothing to do with the nature of the passover lamb that you clearly do not understand. This thread is about an actual snapshot, like a Live Photo made from the latest Apple camera, made with the motion involved in the first moment of the resurrection. The image is made with brilliant light that could not have been produced in the day the image was made without Supernatural Intentionality.

The shroud is irrefutable evidence that a crucified Man rose from the dead at a moment's time and in Jesus' day and hour.

Deal with refuting physical evidence, and leave the philosophy?theology for folks who understand the claims God made in the Tenach.

I'm wondering why our resident Jewish expert, @Jewjitzu doesn't seem interested in addressing physical evidence...he went after physical evidence with every faculty he possesses with the fake tomb discovery outside Jerusalem. Address a real artifact.
Yes, I realize that threads tend to meander to other topics. It bugs me when it happens, but I can't stop it from doing so. I think you will find that my own comments simply reply directly to what people say (whether they are on topic or not).

The Passover lamb is not hard to understand. The blood on the doorway signaled the angel of death to pass over. That is not atonement for sins. The angel of death was not targeting sinners, but firstborn. Again, there is no expiation in the Pesach lamb, either the original night, or in the commemorative sacrifices.

I have not responded to comments about the shround, because it is simply not something that interests me.
 
I have not responded to comments about the shround, because it is simply not something that interests me.
It's interesting to note that evidence doesn't interest you...That, too, is biblical.

Proverbs clarifies that there are those who prefer to hear their own opinions...but evidence that is this strong is a lot like a Trump presidency. No matter how many times you attack it and from which direction, every effort fails, and the corresponding truth is buttressed, strengthened and made more evident to more skeptics.

The shroud eliminates the rational excuse of the skeptic, but gives the willful unbeliever the fullness of light to expose their irrational excuses instead.
 
The shroud is irrefutable evidence that a crucified Man rose from the dead at a moment's time and in Jesus' day and hour.
How does it prove someone rose from the dead?

Deal with refuting physical evidence, and leave the philosophy?theology for folks who understand the claims God made in the Tenach.
You think you understand either?

I'm wondering why our resident Jewish expert,
Expert, no. Always learning, yes.

@Jewjitzu doesn't seem interested in addressing physical evidence...he went after physical evidence with every faculty he possesses with the fake tomb discovery outside Jerusalem.
It wasn't fake. James Tabor I think has done a good job of documenting the discovery and of Jesus' bones and family.

Address a real artifact.
For one thing, I don't get personally notified when people randomly create new OPs in the Judaism forum. For another, it's been Passover so I've been busy with more important things.

I'll check out what you got.
 
How does it prove someone rose from the dead?
Why are you asking me instead of taking the time to investigate for yourself? The articles I posted represent the latest reports, and are good, but not even the best out there.

In a nutshell, the blood is AB+ and dates to the first century, and the wounds correspond to a man who has been flogged with Roman whips and crowned with thorns indigenous to the Jerusalem area, not woven into a wreath, but fashioned as a cap covering the entire skull...and the image could only have made by intense laser-like light produced during the initial movements of a reanimated corpse.

That's the report. Since you can't read it, you can't refute it either.
You think you understand either?
You've proven you do not.

Expert, no. Always learning, yes.
Another reason to anticipate your views.

It wasn't fake. James Tabor I think has done a good job of documenting the discovery and of Jesus' bones and family.
It was totally fake, and the fact that the date of discovery is 21st century is all you need to debunk the claim. No self-respecting Jewish leader would watch Judaism split in two when the claimants' spectacular claims were so easily debunked.

Remember..."Mary" was there? She died decades after your Messiah rose from the dead...and they knew where to lay her? Your claims are not just specious. They're silly and credible only to the most wishful, lazy credulous.

For one thing, I don't get personally notified when people randomly create new OPs in the Judaism forum. For another, it's been Passover so I've been busy with more important things.

I'll check out what you got.
I think you'll find it stimulating at least.
 
Why are you asking me instead of taking the time to investigate for yourself? The articles I posted represent the latest reports, and are good, but not even the best out there.
Like I said, how does the shroud prove the resurrection, let alone that it was Jesus. You should know this since you've read your own articles.


In a nutshell, the blood is AB+ and dates to the first century, and the wounds correspond to a man who has been flogged with Roman whips and crowned with thorns indigenous to the Jerusalem area, not woven into a wreath, but fashioned as a cap covering the entire skull...and the image could only have made by intense laser-like light produced during the initial movements of a reanimated corpse.
Why do you say reanimated corpse? Again, based on the red cross blood data, AB+ requires two human parents. God doesn't qualify.

That's the report. Since you can't read it, you can't refute it either.
You've proven you do not.
You haven't answered the above.

Another reason to anticipate your views.
Ok.

It was totally fake, and the fact that the date of discovery is 21st century is all you need to debunk the claim. No self-respecting Jewish leader would watch Judaism split in two when the claimants' spectacular claims were so easily debunked.
But they weren't.

Remember..."Mary" was there? She died decades after your Messiah rose from the dead...and they knew where to lay her? Your claims are not just specious. They're silly and credible only to the most wishful, lazy credulous.
Very credible that Jesus was married and had children like Jews were commanded to do.

I think you'll find it stimulating at least.
We'll see.
 
Like I said, how does the shroud prove the resurrection, let alone that it was Jesus. You should know this since you've read your own articles.
Why do you post a sentence like this before reading the next sentence in my post.

"In a nutshell, the blood is AB+ and dates to the first century, and the wounds correspond to a man who has been flogged with Roman whips and crowned with thorns indigenous to the Jerusalem area, not woven into a wreath, but fashioned as a cap covering the entire skull...and the image could only have made by intense laser-like light produced during the initial movements of a reanimated corpse."[/quote]

Why do you say reanimated corpse?
He died. He rose again from the dead.

Again, based on the red cross blood data, AB+ requires two human parents. God doesn't qualify.
I've already shown you your claim is silly nonsense. Jesus, to be born , requires a Father and a mother...Mary was the one who received the Word of the Lord, as all of creation received the Word of the Lord and brought forth Life. What Mary did was not without precedent...and it was unique. Your god is limited, and his word cannot create life, or put life in a womb. Your Messiah whom you reject was fully man, and the DNA was clearly XY...AB is only a blood type. You are no scientist.

You haven't answered the above.
This only proves your disability. You refuse to read. I answered.

Ok.


But they weren't.
If the tomb was so easily found, and reopened upon the death of the offending mother, they most certainly were. Your claim to historic incompetence is specious.

Very credible that Jesus was married and had children like Jews were commanded to do.
Jesus was betrothed and has One Bride.

We'll see.
I'll wait.
 
That's false...I know you do. But all branches of Judaism acknowledge "Elijah" at the seder, knowing that it's a shadow of the Promise. Folks who make stuff up...make stuff up, and that is fine if you're a "reform" Jew, having no link other than tacit acknowledgment to the Tenach.
Actually, Elijah's return is actually prophesied in Malachi 4:5. It isn't a shadow.
 
"In a nutshell, the blood is AB+ and dates to the first century, and the wounds correspond to a man who has been flogged with Roman whips and crowned with thorns indigenous to the Jerusalem area, not woven into a wreath, but fashioned as a cap covering the entire skull...and the image could only have made by intense laser-like light produced during the initial movements of a reanimated corpse."
According to the only Jewish person on the project, you can't tell when the image was produced before or after.

tbeachhead said:
He died. He rose again from the dead.
I don't see evidence of that, especially given the Talpiot tomb.

tbeachhead said:
I've already shown you your claim is silly nonsense. Jesus, to be born , requires a Father and a mother...Mary was the one who received the Word of the Lord, as all of creation received the Word of the Lord and brought forth Life. What Mary did was not without precedent...and it was unique. Your god is limited, and his word cannot create life, or put life in a womb. Your Messiah whom you reject was fully man, and the DNA was clearly XY...AB is only a blood type. You are no scientist.
Fully human requires two parents. The Red Cross corroborates that a child receives A from one parent B from another.

tbeachhead said:
This only proves your disability. You refuse to read. I answered.
No problem on my end.

tbeachhead said:
If the tomb was so easily found, and reopened upon the death of the offending mother, they most certainly were. Your claim to historic incompetence is specious.
Families were buried together in family tombs.

tbeachhead said:
Jesus was betrothed and has One Bride.
That doesn't fulfill the law if he was perfect.

tbeachhead said:
I'll wait.
Ok.
 
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According to the only Jewish person on the project, you can't tell when the image was produced before or after.


I don't see evidence of that, especially given the Talpiot tomb.


Fully human requires two parents. The Red Cross corroborates that a child receives A from one parent B from another.


No problem on my end.


Families were buried together in family tombs.


That doesn't fulfill the law if he was perfect.


Ok.
Do you believe in miracles?
 
According to the only Jewish person on the project, you can't tell when the image was produced before or after.
Before or after what? This observation makes no sense. The image was made by intense light at the moment the Risen Messiah began to move, and it caught the motion like an Apple live photo.

I don't see evidence of that, especially given the Talpiot tomb.
Of course you don't. You won't and you can't. You're stuck on a fraud that was perpetrated to enable your self-perpetuated blindness. The "Talpiot" tomb is a farce to apologists...and I've already shown you why. They buried a "Mary" there. The mother of Jesus died decades after Jesus was buried. To reopen a tomb with Jesus in it would have belied decades of a gospel that spread by persuasion and miraculous confirmation. By the time Mary was buried, two of the gospels at least had already been written and were in circulation. You really ought to give up on that fraud.

Fully human requires two parents. The Red Cross corroborates that a child receives A from one parent B from another.
You're hurting your own reputation by insisting on this nonsense. Blood types are blood types. I'm "O+". Want to try and use your logic here? Because it's faulty. You're confusing x/y chromosomes with A's and B's and 0's.

More importantly, you're defining fully human, and you're not God. Jesus was fully human, and the last Adam...who was the first son of God, and fully human as well.

No problem on my end.
Not being able to read is a problem you do not perceive...but that explains your handicap. There's a deaf man who also blames everyone else for not speaking clearly...He insists he doesn't have a problem. He has two.

Families were buried together in family tombs.
You're only proving your desperation...If they knew where Jesus was buried, they could have debunked the claim. They could not. By all accounts, Jesus' father died before His ministry began...in Nazareth, and Joseph was known by name as Jesus' "rather" throughout Galilee. Jesus never had a son, let alone a son named "Judah"...He died crucified, and the proof is in the cloth.

And it doesn't even matter, though, does it, when the tomb was empty. They didn't bury Jesus with His dad. They buried Him in a rich man's tomb that had not been used...AND the tomb had to be near Golgotha. The burial had to happen before the Sabbath began.

That doesn't fulfill the law if he was perfect.
Huh? Now you're inventing stuff. He was betrothed...He has a bride. "For the joy that was set before Him He endured the cross." She's not just any bride...she was worth waiting for...as you are.

 
Before or after what? This observation makes no sense. The image was made by intense light at the moment the Risen Messiah began to move, and it caught the motion like an Apple live photo.
The image doesn't prove a resurrection. Intense UV doesn't prove life.

BTW, where did Jesus get the clothing he was walking around in since he wasn't buried in them? Or the 500 saints who burst thru their tombs?

Of course you don't. You won't and you can't. You're stuck on a fraud that was perpetrated to enable your self-perpetuated blindness. The "Talpiot" tomb is a farce to apologists...and I've already shown you why. They buried a "Mary" there. The mother of Jesus died decades after Jesus was buried.
It wasn't the mother buried there but Jesus' wife.

To reopen a tomb with Jesus in it would have belied decades of a gospel that spread by persuasion and miraculous confirmation.
What confirmation?

By the time Mary was buried, two of the gospels at least had already been written and were in circulation. You really ought to give up on that fraud.
Paul's letters were the earliest letters. The gospels after that.

You're hurting your own reputation by insisting on this nonsense. Blood types are blood types. I'm "O+". Want to try and use your logic here? Because it's faulty. You're confusing x/y chromosomes with A's and B's and 0's.
No, I'm just going by the science provided by the Red Cross.

Here's a different link which confirms the same thing.

You're hurting your own reputation by not following the science.

More importantly, you're defining fully human, and you're not God. Jesus was fully human, and the last Adam...who was the first son of God, and fully human as well.
Sorry, but humans have two human parents. AB+ blood proves that.

Not being able to read is a problem you do not perceive...but that explains your handicap. There's a deaf man who also blames everyone else for not speaking clearly...He insists he doesn't have a problem. He has two.
Again, you're not addressing your problem.

You're only proving your desperation...If they knew where Jesus was buried, they could have debunked the claim. They could not. By all accounts, Jesus' father died before His ministry began...in Nazareth, and Joseph was known by name as Jesus' "rather" throughout Galilee. Jesus never had a son, let alone a son named "Judah"...He died crucified, and the proof is in the cloth.
Well, of course the church would hide the fact that Jesus had a family. A good Jewish man would in fulfillment of the commandments.

And it doesn't even matter, though, does it, when the tomb was empty. They didn't bury Jesus with His dad. They buried Him in a rich man's tomb that had not been used...AND the tomb had to be near Golgotha. The burial had to happen before the Sabbath began.
He was reburied after the Sabbath. James Tabor talks about this.

Huh? Now you're inventing stuff. He was betrothed...He has a bride. "For the joy that was set before Him He endured the cross." She's not just any bride...she was worth waiting for...as you are.
The commandments say for man to marry and procreate.
 
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Yes because they saw the miracles of God they believed.
Actually, if you follow Deut 4:9,12,15,35, they were shown God isn't physical. True prophets and teachers teach this principle.

Miracles are believed when someone follows the commandments, Deut 13:1-11. They are false otherwise.
 
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