The Skinny on Foreknowledge in a Short Op

JDS

Well-known member
Foreknowledge is a New Testament word. It is not a description of an attribute of God in the four thousand years of the Old Testament. This word appears first in Romans 11 in the context of God's people, Israel, with whom he had a long two thousand year covenant relationship, beginning with the fathers of Israel, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and continuing with the 12 tribes of Israel. This was a close and intimate relationship, Israel even picturing in type the wife of Jehovah God, Abraham and Sarah being the express visible image of this relationship. This is the only family or people with whom God had such a personal relationship and in the NT scriptures where this word foreknowledge, foreknow, or foreordained you can believe the context will point to this people. or a member of this family.

Offending statement removed per mod.

Let's begin at Rom 10 so we can keep it brief. what does Rom 10:1 say? Let me quote it.

Ro 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Are there any doubters? The context is Israel, which at the time of the writing of this letter had a national identity. Just for the sake of Perspective, Romans was written from Corinth when Paul was there as recorded in Acts 18. So, all the history from Acts 1 to acts 18 was under the bridge when this statement was made. Paul knew by now that Israel as a whole had rejected Jesus Christ. They year was 58 AD when he wrote this and his following complaint against Israel was absolutely true and he knew it. Here is what his complaint is.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Paul received 195 stripes across his back from his own people for preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to them and at this time several of those stripes had already been delivered.

What is that righteousness they have not submitted to? Here is the answer;

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

He accused them of continuing in the works of the Law of Moses as self righteousness and rejecting Jesus Christ who should have been received by them by faith.

He goes on to say that by simple faith in his finished work of redemption they could be saved.

Now, there is a lot to be said but II am skipping ahead to make my point about foreknow concerning these people Israel.

Since they rejected Christ as the people of God, he opened the door of faith to gentiles because they refuse to come in. This was in AD 40, and so Israel watched God save gentiles for 18 years before this letter was written. Gentiles, who had never had any covenant promises from God. (you should read 2 Cor 3 now)

And so these verses will make more sense knowing these few things. Let me quote them to you. Remember, the apostles and prophets had preached this gospel now for 28 years with little success. Read the m with me;

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Offensive statement removed per mod

Consider the same prophecy of Jesus Christ.

Lu 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed [is] he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one [consent] began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
 
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Foreknowledge is a New Testament word.
. . . but an Old Testament principle . . .

Psa 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, You know all about it, O LORD.

Psa 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed body; all my days were written in Your book and ordained for me before one of them came to be.

1Ki 8:39
then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men),

Isa 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, (10) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Jer 1:4-5 The word of the LORD came to me, saying: (5) “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Jer 32:19
You are great in counsel and mighty in work, for your eyes are open to all the ways of the sons of men, to give everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings.

God is eternal and always knows all that is knowable, and everything that happens is known to Him before it happens.
 
. . . but an Old Testament principle . . .

Psa 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, You know all about it, O LORD.

Psa 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed body; all my days were written in Your book and ordained for me before one of them came to be.

1Ki 8:39
then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men),

Isa 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, (10) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Jer 1:4-5 The word of the LORD came to me, saying: (5) “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Jer 32:19
You are great in counsel and mighty in work, for your eyes are open to all the ways of the sons of men, to give everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings.

God is eternal and always knows all that is knowable, and everything that happens is known to Him before it happens.

Errrr ......

So we were born to not be, for God's knowing we could never be.

Unless we repent of not being?

For never to be?

Makes perfect sense .....
 
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. . . but an Old Testament principle . . .

Psa 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, You know all about it, O LORD.

Psa 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed body; all my days were written in Your book and ordained for me before one of them came to be.

1Ki 8:39
then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men),

Isa 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, (10) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Jer 1:4-5 The word of the LORD came to me, saying: (5) “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Jer 32:19
You are great in counsel and mighty in work, for your eyes are open to all the ways of the sons of men, to give everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings.

God is eternal and always knows all that is knowable, and everything that happens is known to Him before it happens.
You are on the wrong subject. God is not teaching omniscience, though he does that in other passages, he is teaching foreknowledge in the passage I quoted. There is a difference.

Think! The subject is the people group Israel in the New Testament days. Through Christ he has kept promises to them that he made in the OT. The problem is they rejected Jesus Christ as the source of righteousness. They held on to the Law of Moses as the operative principle of their relationship with God after the law had done it's job of convincing them they could not keep it and therefore need righteousness from God himself, not as a work, but as a gift.

Offensive statement regarding others is removed per the rules.
 
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You are on the wrong subject. God is not teaching omniscience, though he does that in other passages, he is teaching foreknowledge in the passage I quoted. There is a difference.

Think! The subject is the people group Israel in the New Testament days. Through Christ he has kept promises to them that he made in the OT. The problem is they rejected Jesus Christ as the source of righteousness. They held on to the Law of Moses as the operative principle of their relationship with God after the law had done it's job of convincing them they could not keep it and therefore need righteousness from God himself, not as a work, but as a gift.

The subject is clear. It is well stated. It is unambiguous. It is pointed. It makes sense. It has a historical context. It lays out God's reaction to their unbelief. It demonstrates his purpose going forward.

AND

And it is completely rejected by people who will not believe the words they read and consider the reason and the logic but have an agenda that makes everything about themselves. It is not too late to change.
I don't have a clue what you're on about, certainly nothing that aligns with Systematic Biblical Theology.

Divine Foreknowledge in ALL THINGS is a given as a consequence of the Omniscience of God. The Bible doesn't contradict itself.
 
Foreknowledge is a New Testament word. It is not a description of an attribute of God in the four thousand years of the Old Testament. This word appears first in Romans 11 in the context of God's people, Israel, with whom he had a long two thousand year covenant relationship, beginning with the fathers of Israel, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and continuing with the 12 tribes of Israel. This was a close and intimate relationship, Israel even picturing in type the wife of Jehovah God, Abraham and Sarah being the express visible image of this relationship. This is the only family or people with whom God had such a personal relationship and in the NT scriptures where this word foreknowledge, foreknow, or foreordained you can believe the context will point to this people. or a member of this family.

It does not take a college degree to understand the language where this word or words appear, but it does take intelligence of a fifth grader and eyes that are open and the ability to reason and use logic on a small scale to know these are the people God is speaking about when he says he foreknew them, meaning simply that he knew them before the present time that was under discussion when the NT was written and these things expounded and these terms expressed. There is simply no logical reason to ignore context and for the sake of this op I am going to offer just a few things quickly for the reader to ponder.

Let's begin at Rom 10 so we can keep it brief. what does Rom 10:1 say? Let me quote it.

Ro 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Are there any doubters? The context is Israel, which at the time of the writing of this letter had a national identity. Just for the sake of Perspective, Romans was written from Corinth when Paul was there as recorded in Acts 18. So, all the history from Acts 1 to acts 18 was under the bridge when this statement was made. Paul knew by now that Israel as a whole had rejected Jesus Christ. They year was 58 AD when he wrote this and his following complaint against Israel was absolutely true and he knew it. Here is what his complaint is.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Paul received 195 stripes across his back from his own people for preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to them and at this time several of those stripes had already been delivered.

What is that righteousness they have not submitted to? Here is the answer;

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

He accused them of continuing in the works of the Law of Moses as self righteousness and rejecting Jesus Christ who should have been received by them by faith.

He goes on to say that by simple faith in his finished work of redemption they could be saved.

Now, there is a lot to be said but II am skipping ahead to make my point about foreknow concerning these people Israel.

Since they rejected Christ as the people of God, he opened the door of faith to gentiles because they refuse to come in. This was in AD 40, and so Israel watched God save gentiles for 18 years before this letter was written. Gentiles, who had never had any covenant promises from God. (you should read 2 Cor 3 now)

And so these verses will make more sense knowing these few things. Let me quote them to you. Remember, the apostles and prophets had preached this gospel now for 28 years with little success. Read the m with me;

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Now I am not going to insult anyone's 5th grade reasoning ability and formal education and explain something that does not need any explaining. There is a remnant of Israel who got saved, very small who kept the hope of the national covenants alive during Israel's blindness. And the reason God invited the gentiles is clearly spelled out in the above passage and also in that which is to follow. There is simply no reason and logic to get this wrong.

Consider the same prophecy of Jesus Christ.

Lu 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed [is] he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one [consent] began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

God foreknew his people Israel and that is all he foreknew.
Yikes ...
 
I don't have a clue what you're on about, certainly nothing that aligns with Systematic Biblical Theology.

Divine Foreknowledge in ALL THINGS is a given as a consequence of the Omniscience of God. The Bible doesn't contradict itself.
Years ago I spent some time in Vietnam. The locals there had a saying when two or more things are the same. It was "same/same." Here are three things in a context that are the same.

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

1) His (God's) people
2) Israelites
3) foreknew (before this present time = 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.)

Logic, reason, and deduction is all that is called for here.

Here is a contrasting statement that is not speaking about Israelites, but gentiles.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

1) in time past v 11 - While God was knowing Israel before this age
2) at that time v 12
3) But now v13 - this present time - the Jewish remnant of this age and the believing gentiles are united in the same body of Christ

This might help you or some other pilgrim.
 
Foreknowledge is a New Testament word. It is not a description of an attribute of God in the four thousand years of the Old Testament. This word appears first in Romans 11 in the context of God's people, Israel, with whom he had a long two thousand year covenant relationship, beginning with the fathers of Israel, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and continuing with the 12 tribes of Israel. This was a close and intimate relationship, Israel even picturing in type the wife of Jehovah God, Abraham and Sarah being the express visible image of this relationship. This is the only family or people with whom God had such a personal relationship and in the NT scriptures where this word foreknowledge, foreknow, or foreordained you can believe the context will point to this people. or a member of this family.

It does not take a college degree to understand the language where this word or words appear, but it does take intelligence of a fifth grader and eyes that are open and the ability to reason and use logic on a small scale to know these are the people God is speaking about when he says he foreknew them, meaning simply that he knew them before the present time that was under discussion when the NT was written and these things expounded and these terms expressed. There is simply no logical reason to ignore context and for the sake of this op I am going to offer just a few things quickly for the reader to ponder.

Let's begin at Rom 10 so we can keep it brief. what does Rom 10:1 say? Let me quote it.

Ro 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Are there any doubters? The context is Israel, which at the time of the writing of this letter had a national identity. Just for the sake of Perspective, Romans was written from Corinth when Paul was there as recorded in Acts 18. So, all the history from Acts 1 to acts 18 was under the bridge when this statement was made. Paul knew by now that Israel as a whole had rejected Jesus Christ. They year was 58 AD when he wrote this and his following complaint against Israel was absolutely true and he knew it. Here is what his complaint is.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Paul received 195 stripes across his back from his own people for preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to them and at this time several of those stripes had already been delivered.

What is that righteousness they have not submitted to? Here is the answer;

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

He accused them of continuing in the works of the Law of Moses as self righteousness and rejecting Jesus Christ who should have been received by them by faith.

He goes on to say that by simple faith in his finished work of redemption they could be saved.

Now, there is a lot to be said but II am skipping ahead to make my point about foreknow concerning these people Israel.

Since they rejected Christ as the people of God, he opened the door of faith to gentiles because they refuse to come in. This was in AD 40, and so Israel watched God save gentiles for 18 years before this letter was written. Gentiles, who had never had any covenant promises from God. (you should read 2 Cor 3 now)

And so these verses will make more sense knowing these few things. Let me quote them to you. Remember, the apostles and prophets had preached this gospel now for 28 years with little success. Read the m with me;

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Now I am not going to insult anyone's 5th grade reasoning ability and formal education and explain something that does not need any explaining. There is a remnant of Israel who got saved, very small who kept the hope of the national covenants alive during Israel's blindness. And the reason God invited the gentiles is clearly spelled out in the above passage and also in that which is to follow. There is simply no reason and logic to get this wrong.

Consider the same prophecy of Jesus Christ.

Lu 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed [is] he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one [consent] began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

God foreknew his people Israel and that is all he foreknew.
Good perspective on foreknowledge.
 
In what sense did God foreknow Israel? In your view, was He just aware a nation called Israel existed?
Did JDS do a "hit and run"?

Was God aware a nation called Israel existed, or did God foreknow them because He knew they would choose Him?
Neither of these free will definitions will work, although all free will doctrine is forced to pick 1 of these ridiculous options.

Therefore we need to put our 5th grade brains together and come up with a working definition of "foreknew".
 
Did JDS do a "hit and run"?

Was God aware a nation called Israel existed, or did God foreknow them because He knew they would choose Him?
Neither of these free will definitions will work, although all free will doctrine is forced to pick 1 of these ridiculous options.

Therefore we need to put our 5th grade brains together and come up with a working definition of "foreknew".
The only verses in scripture that actually explains predestination the Calvinist have destroyed it’s context.
Unchecked Copy Box
Rom 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be-conformed to the image of hisSon, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 
The only verses in scripture that actually explains predestination the Calvinist have destroyed it’s context.
Unchecked Copy Box
Rom 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be-conformed to the image of hisSon, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Maybe you'd like to answer for JDS. Did God "foreknow" Israel BECAUSE He was aware it existed?

This puts God's omniscience somewhere in the neighborhood of every other person on earth.
 
Maybe you'd like to answer for JDS. Did God "foreknow" Israel BECAUSE He was aware it existed?

This puts God's omniscience somewhere in the neighborhood of every other person on earth.
Nah, I let scripture speak for itself without all the spin and deflection.
 
Foreknowledge is a New Testament word. It is not a description of an attribute of God in the four thousand years of the Old Testament.
And yet there are 17 Books of the Old Testament authored by 16 prophets to whom God in His foreknowledge revealed things that would happen in the future.

Isaiah 42:9 Behold, the former things have come to pass, And new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them."

Isaiah 46:8-10
"Remember this, and show yourselves men; Recall to mind, O you transgressors. (9) Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, (10) Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'

Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days. Your dream, and the visions of your head upon your bed, were these:

In His Divine Foreknowledge God revealed future events to Joseph,, and also to his father Jacob, who prophesied the future posterity of his sons, in particular that of Judah from whence the Messiah would come.

Gen 49:1-2 And Jacob called his sons and said, "Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days: (2) "Gather together and hear, you sons of Jacob, And listen to Israel your father.

Gen 49:9-10 Judah is a lion's whelp; From the prey, my son, you have gone up. He bows down, he lies down as a lion; And as a lion, who shall rouse him? (10) The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.

God's foreknowledge is evident in the Old Testament in myriad places.
 
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