The so called "Trinity" does not exist!

shnarkle

Well-known member
John 4:24 God is spirit…
Agreed/
1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the eternal king, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever! Amen.
Again, agreed.
You fail to consider YHWH’s existence without creation.
Where did I fail to consider that?
He is spirit, eternal, incorporeal, and invisible. His making Himself visible to humans through theophanies like the burning bush, etc., and His eventual incarnation in Jesus Christ, are irrelevant.
"He is the image of the invisible God," Col. 1:15 So the fact that the bible mentions these things is irrelevant? Got it.
Isaiah 46:5 To whom would you liken Me And make Me equal and compare Me, That we would be alike? 9 …I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD [YHWH], and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.”

Isaiah 44:6 This is what the LORD [YHWH], Israel’s king, says, their protector, the LORD [YHWH] who commands armies: “I AM THE FIRST AND I AM THE LAST, there is no God but me.

Isaiah 44:24 This is what the LORD [YHWH], your protector, says, the one who formed you in the womb: “I am the LORD [YHWH], who made everything, who alone stretched out the sky, who fashioned the earth all by myself...

The grammatical facts of the language YHWH uses here establishes that He is ONE PERSON, and it demonstrates that the existence of a trinity is IMPOSSIBLE!
You seem to be addressing someone else. I am not suggesting that God has more than one persona, and that persona is "the word", the image, the icon, the mediator, etc. If you want to look at the person, there is no other person other than Christ. He is God personified. No one comes to the father except through the son. When you look at God, you look at his image, and there is only one image. The one and only person is the Son.

By definition, the persona is what is presented to the world, and only the son is presented to the world. There is no Father without a trinitarian reality.
 

Μιχαήλ

New Member
Agreed/

Again, agreed.

Where did I fail to consider that?

"He is the image of the invisible God," Col. 1:15 So the fact that the bible mentions these things is irrelevant? Got it.

You seem to be addressing someone else. I am not suggesting that God has more than one persona, and that persona is "the word", the image, the icon, the mediator, etc. If you want to look at the person, there is no other person other than Christ. He is God personified. No one comes to the father except through the son. When you look at God, you look at his image, and there is only one image. The one and only person is the Son.

By definition, the persona is what is presented to the world, and only the son is presented to the world. There is no Father without a trinitarian reality.
Without creation there is no one for YHWH to be a father to. His essential existence, without creation, is that of a SELF-EXISTENT, ETERNAL entity. This alone precludes the existence of three divine persons.


I AM 3:14 1 Related to the name of God, YHWH, rendered LORD, which is derived from the verb HAYAH, to be

OT:3068* Yehovah

Jehovah (Yahweh) = "the existing One"

the proper name of the one true God; unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of OT:136

(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright © 1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

YHWH

יְהֹוָה

OT:3068 Yehovah (yeh-ho-vaw'); from OT:1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:


KJV - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare OT:3050, OT:3069.


(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


YHWH is the existing ONE, not three. He is ONE person!
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Without creation there is no one for YHWH to be a father to.
Not necessarily. YHWH is the origin of all that exists, but most especially existence itself which necessarily exists eternally. The fact that existence is eternal doesn't negate the fact that God is the origin of existence. Existence belongs to God. Existence owes it's existence to God. God begets existence, hence the title "father".

I am not referring to things that exist, but to existence (or being) itself.
His essential existence,
I would like to draw your attention to the fact that you are pointing out that God's existence is something he possesses rather than portraying it as who he is. You are presenting,( and rightly so) the Genitive of Possession rather than the verb to be.
without creation, is that of a SELF-EXISTENT, ETERNAL entity.
Grammatically, the self is distinguished from who he is. Likewise you distinguish yourself from who you are. We all do this.. However, I'm not so sure it follows that he is "an" entity. This is just assumed.
This alone precludes the existence of three divine persons.
Necessity alone precludes the existence for three persons.
I AM 3:14 1 Related to the name of God, YHWH, rendered LORD, which is derived from the verb HAYAH, to be
I don't know what these numbers you have posted refer to. However, we're now looking at the verb to be rather than the genitive of possession.
YHWH is the existing ONE, not three. He is ONE person!
False. Again, who you are is not the persona presented to the world. By definition, a persona is what is presented to the world. You are not the self, or persona. The self is yours which is why we say it is your self, i.e. yourself. It is something you possess. It is the Genitive of possession.

To conflate the verb to be with the genitive of possession is grammatical blasphemy. They are distinctly different. Just because we identify one with the other, it does not follow that one is the other. See the problem yet?

Your argument is similar to the so-called "flat-earthers" who admit the existence of a north pole, yet don't take into consideration the fact that there can no such thing as Polarity(ONE THING) without TWO poles, and the relationship between these two things.

From this we see a trinitarian relationship emerge, i.e. two poles and the relationship or power produced between these two poles. A trinitarian relationship should not be confused with the doctrine of the Trinity, or a trinitarian god.
 

Μιχαήλ

New Member
Not necessarily. YHWH is the origin of all that exists, but most especially existence itself which necessarily exists eternally. The fact that existence is eternal doesn't negate the fact that God is the origin of existence. Existence belongs to God. Existence owes it's existence to God. God begets existence, hence the title "father".
Only YHWH exists eternally, which means He has no origin, and it is only He who exists necessarily. WITHOUT creation, nothing or no one exists, only YHWH, and He isn’t his own Father!
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Only YHWH exists eternally, which means He has no origin,
You're conflating origin with beginning. There is no beginning or end to existence. Likewise, there is no beginning or end to nothing. However, the origin of existence cannot logically exist without creating an infinite regression. In other words, if the origin of existence exists, then it cannot logically be the origin of existence because it exists.
it is only He who exists necessarily. WITHOUT creation,
Not if existence is an attribute rather than who God is.
nothing or no one exists,
This is a contradiction. By definition, nothing can't exist.
only YHWH,
YHWH is the name attributed to God. It is the name that represents YHWH, but what represents YHWH isn't necessarily YHWH. Again, by definition, representatives or representations are not who or what is represented.
and He isn’t his own Father!
Agreed. I never suggested he was. I am clearly distinguishing the father from the son. The son, just like the father must be eternal, if the father is eternal.
 

Μιχαήλ

New Member
You're conflating origin with beginning. There is no beginning or end to existence. Likewise, there is no beginning or end to nothing. However, the origin of existence cannot logically exist without creating an infinite regression. In other words, if the origin of existence exists, then it cannot logically be the origin of existence because it exists.

Not if existence is an attribute rather than who God is.

This is a contradiction. By definition, nothing can't exist.

YHWH is the name attributed to God. It is the name that represents YHWH, but what represents YHWH isn't necessarily YHWH. Again, by definition, representatives or representations are not who or what is represented.

Agreed. I never suggested he was. I am clearly distinguishing the father from the son. The son, just like the father must be eternal, if the father is eternal.
SMH. “Origin” and “beginning” are synonymous. God has no origin or beginning, He’s eternal. There is only one, and there can't be more than one eternal, self-aware and self-existent entity.

Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM that I AM.”48 And he said, "You must say this to the Israelites, ' I AM has sent me to you.'" 15 God also said to Moses, "You must say this to the Israelites, ‘The Lord50—the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob - has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my memorial from generation to generation.'

48tn The verb form used here is אֶהְיֶה (ʾehyeh), the Qal imperfect, first person common singular, of the verb הָיָה (hayah, “to be”). It forms an excellent paronomasia with the name. So when God used the verb to express his name, he used this form saying, “I am.” When his people refer to him as Yahweh, which is the third person masculine singular form of the same verb, they say “he is.”

50sn Heb “Yahweh,” traditionally rendered “the LORD.” First the verb “I AM” was used (v. 14) in place of the name to indicate its meaning and to remind Moses of God’s promise to be with him (v. 12). Now in v. 15 the actual name is used for clear identification: “Yahweh…has sent me.” This is the name that the patriarchs invoked and proclaimed in the land of Canaan.

(from The NET Bible®, Copyright © 1996-2006 by Biblical Studies Press, L.L.C., Dallas, Texas)

https://netbible.org/bible/Exodus+3:14



I AM 3:14 1 Related to the name of God, YHWH, rendered LORD, which is derived from the verb HAYAH, to be

OT:3068* Yehovah

Jehovah (Yahweh) = "the existing One"
the proper name of the one true God; unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of OT:136

(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright © 1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

YHWH

יְהֹוָה

OT:3068 Yehovah (yeh-ho-vaw'); from OT:1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:


KJV - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare OT:3050, OT:3069.


(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


The fundamental purpose of the verb “YHWH” is to describe God’s state of existence, it literally means "He is," or "He exists." The name YHWH isn't merely a "label" for the purpose of identification, but rather, it describes to mankind exactly who God is, the SELF-EXISTING ONE.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
SMH. “Origin” and “beginning” are synonymous.
Not when referring to God. SHM
God has no origin or beginning,
God IS the ORIGIN of everything.
He’s eternal.
Eternal is more of a characteristic than who God is.
The fundamental purpose of the verb “YHWH” is to describe God’s state of existence, it literally means "He is," or "He exists." The name YHWH isn't merely a "label" for the purpose of identification, but rather, it describes to mankind exactly who God is, the SELF-EXISTING ONE.
The fact remains that God's name is not, and never will be God. By definition, it can only represent or be substituted for God. Ultimately, it is the word itself that exists eternally because there can be no referent for the term.

Obviously, this doesn't apply to those who have a god who will never transcend their feeble imaginations.
 
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