The so called "Trinity" does not exist!

101G

Well-known member
I said Hands, not Hand.
Greeting Eve,
if Christ is God's Hands is it then he God himself? listen, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." is not MINE is me one person?
for the ARM of God is revealed in Isaiah chapter 53. remember "MINE", his OWN ARE is the Christ, God himself.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

101G

Well-known member
The Holy Spirit is not a “being” anymore than apostle Paul’s spirit was a being. Biblical words must be given biblical definitions, not pagan ones.
we must disagree with that statement, the Holy Spirit is the "ONLY" being. or the ONLY "LIFE" giving Spirit.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
The Holy Spirit is not a “being” anymore than apostle Paul’s spirit was a being. Biblical words must be given biblical definitions, not pagan ones.
The Holy Spirit is said to have at least 73 personal characteristics in the Bible. The Bible does not say Paul 's spirit or anyone else has those characteristics.
…..Personal characteristics of the Holy Spirit, Access to God, Anoints for Service, Assures, Authors Scripture, Baptizes, Believers Born of, Calls and Commissions, Cleanses, Comforts, Communion with believers, Convicts of sin, Counsels, Creates, Empowers, Empowers Believers, Fellowship with believers, Fills, Forbids action, Gives gifts, Glorifies Christ, Guides in truth, Helps our weakness, Indwells believers, Inspires prayer, Intercedes, Interprets Scripture, Leads, Liberates, Molds Character, Produces fruit, Raises from the dead, Regenerates, Reveals, Sanctifies, Seals, Sends, Sent, Strengthens, Testifies of Jesus, Victory over flesh, Warns, Worship helper
The Holy Spirit
…..The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).
…..Some heterodox religious groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor 12:11), a self, (John 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).
…..There are, at least, seventy three (73) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.
Names of the Spirit (7)
1.
God -Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4, Acts of the Apostles 28:25-27, Hebrews 3:7-11, Hebrews 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Corinthians 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Corinthians 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Corinthians 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Hebrews 9:14
7. Spirit of Jesus – Acts of the Apostles 16:7
Attributes of (9)
8.
Eternal –Hebrews 9:14
9. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
10. Omnipresent - Psalms 139:7-8
11. Distinct will from the father and the son– 1 Corinthians 12:11
1 Cor 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.​
12. Loves - Romans 15:30
13. Speaks - Acts of the Apostles 8:29; Acts of the Apostles 13:2
14. Distinct mind from the father and the son– Romans 8:27
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.​
15. Distinct self from the father and the son – John 16:13
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.​
16. Alive – John 14:17
Symbols of (3)
17.
Dove - Matthew 3:15
18. Wind - John 3:5
19. Fire - Acts of the Apostles 2:3
Sins Against (6)
20.
Blasphemy - Matthew 12:31
21. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts of the Apostles 7:51
22. Insult - Hebrews 10:29
23. Lied to - Acts of the Apostles 5:3
24. Grieved - Ephesians 4:30
25. Quench - 1 Thessalonians 5:19
Power in Christ's Life (6)
26.
Conceived of - Matthew 1:18-20
27. Baptism - Matthew 3:15
28. Led by - Luke 4:1
29. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
30. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
31. Raised Jesus - Romans 8:11
The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)
1
Access to God - Ephesians 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Romans 8:15-16; Galatians 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Peter 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Corinthians 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts of the Apostles 13:24; Acts of the Apostles 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Peter 1:2
9 Comforts - Acts of the Apostles 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Corinthians 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Genesis 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thessalonians 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Philippians 2:1
17 Fills - Acts of the Apostles 2:4; Acts of the Apostles 4:29-31; Acts of the Apostles 5:18-20; Acts of the Apostles 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts of the Apostles 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Corinthians 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Romans 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Romans 8:9-14; Galatians 4:6
24 Inspires prayer – Ephesians 6:18; Jude 1:20
25 Intercedes -Romans 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Corinthians 2:1,14; Ephesians 1:17
27 Leads - Romans 8:14
28 Liberates - Romans 8:2
29 Molds Character - Galatians 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Galatians 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Romans 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luke 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Romans 15:16
35 Seals - Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 4:30
36 Sends - Acts of the Apostles 13:4
37 Sent - Galatians 4:6; 1 Peter 1:12
38 Strengthens - Ephesians 3:16; Acts of the Apostles 1:8; 2:4; 1 Corinthians 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Romans 8:2-4; Galatians 4:6
41 Warns – Acts of the Apostles 20:23
42 Worship helper – Philippians 3:3
[92] Total scripture
Sources Consulted:
CARM.org
DTL.org/Trinity
 

e v e

Super Member
The Holy Spirit is not a “being” anymore than apostle Paul’s spirit was a being. Biblical words must be given biblical definitions, not pagan ones.
giving something a label, such as pagan, is a generality and not at all true in this case.
I won't bother with your line about 'definitions' because of course these are things men agreed on,
some of those same men being pagans themselves, even if in disguise.
 

e v e

Super Member
Greeting Eve,
if Christ is God's Hands is it then he God himself? listen, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me." is not MINE is me one person?
for the ARM of God is revealed in Isaiah chapter 53. remember "MINE", his OWN ARE is the Christ, God himself.

PICJAG, 101G.
I said that christ and God's spirit are His Hands.

Just being a bit more specific.
 

Μιχαήλ

New Member
This post might have had some merit if it did not suffer from what I call the "Strong's Fallacy."
Strong's is not a lexicon it is a concordance. It does not present a researched definition of words. It only shows where words occur in the KJV and how the words are translated in the KJV which may or may not be correct.
See e.g. the "name" Jehovah. All Hebrew names have meaning. There is no such word as Jehovah in Hebrew. First there is no letter "J." The letter "J" snuck into the Bible when Luther translated the Bible into German. The name Hebrew name ישׁוע/Yeshua which means "He will save." is transliterated "Ἰησοῦς"/iesous in the 225 BC Septuagint, Greek translation of the OT abbreviated LXX. "Iesous" is pronounced Yaysoos. There is no written "sh" sound in Greek. In Greek female names end in "a." To make Yeshua masculine the "a" was changed to "s."
When Luther translated the Bible he transliterated Iesous as "Jesus." In German "J" is pronounced "Y" and "E" is pronounced "ay." As for Jehovah here is a quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia.
the form "Jehovah," which, however, is a philological impossibility (see Jehovah). This form has arisen through attempting to pronounce the consonants of the name with the vowels of Adonai (
V09p160003.jpg
= "Lord"), which the Masorites have inserted in the text, indicating thereby that Adonai was to be read (as a "ḳeri perpetuum") instead of Yhwh.​
The Hebrew tetragrammaton, יְהוָ֞ה (YHWH), is the way the name of God appears in the Hebrew Bible, and for you to make a big deal out of the use of “Jehovah” while ignoring the clear fact of my post shows that you have no argument. Some English translations have the rendering of “Jehovah,” which has merely been accepted as a way of pronouncing God’s name in the English language. This doesn’t invalidate the fact that the Hebrew name of God establishes that He is numerically one person or a numerically single entity!

I AM THAT I AM.jpg

Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM that I AM.”48 And he said, "You must say this to the Israelites, ' I AM has sent me to you.'" 15 God also said to Moses, "You must say this to the Israelites, ‘The Lord50—the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob - has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my memorial from generation to generation.'

48tn The verb form used here is אֶהְיֶה (ʾehyeh), the Qal imperfect, first person common singular, of the verb הָיָה (hayah, “to be”). It forms an excellent paronomasia with the name. So when God used the verb to express his name, he used this form saying, “I am.” When his people refer to him as Yahweh, which is the third person masculine singular form of the same verb, they say “he is.”

50sn Heb “Yahweh,” traditionally rendered “the LORD.” First the verb “I AM” was used (v. 14) in place of the name to indicate its meaning and to remind Moses of God’s promise to be with him (v. 12). Now in v. 15 the actual name is used for clear identification: “Yahweh…has sent me.” This is the name that the patriarchs invoked and proclaimed in the land of Canaan.

(from The NET Bible®, Copyright © 1996-2006 by Biblical Studies Press, L.L.C., Dallas, Texas)

https://netbible.org/bible/Exodus+3:14


OT:3068, "LORD." The Tetragrammaton YHWH appears without its own vowels, and its exact pronunciation is debated (Jehovah, Yehovah, Jahweh, Yahweh). The Hebrew text does insert the vowels for ‘adonay, and Jewish students and scholars read ‘adonay whenever they see the Tetragrammaton. This use of the word occurs 6,828 times. The word appears in every period of biblical Hebrew.

(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

I AM THAT I AM 2.jpg


Isaiah 46:5 To whom would you liken Me And make Me equal and compare Me, That we would be alike? 9 …I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me…

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD [YHWH], and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.”

Isaiah 44:6 This is what the LORD [YHWH], Israel’s king, says, their protector, the LORD [YHWH] who commands armies: “I AM THE FIRST AND I AM THE LAST, there is no God but me.

These are the words of one person, YHWH, and He is speaking in reference to Himself to the exclusion of any other person(s). He specifically states that He alone is God, so there can’t be another person who is also God. He makes it very clear that He has no equal and there is no other person like Him. He is SELF-Existent, not selves-existent! He is the Eternal or existing ONE, not the Eternal or existing three! These statements by YHWH God Himself make it impossible that there are three persons who all exist as God!
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
The Hebrew tetragrammaton, יְהוָ֞ה (YHWH), is the way the name of God appears in the Hebrew Bible, and for you to make a big deal out of the use of “Jehovah” while ignoring the clear fact of my post shows that you have no argument. Some English translations have the rendering of “Jehovah,” which has merely been accepted as a way of pronouncing God’s name in the English language. This doesn’t invalidate the fact that the Hebrew name of God establishes that He is numerically one person or a numerically single entity!

View attachment 2063

Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "I AM that I AM.”48 And he said, "You must say this to the Israelites, ' I AM has sent me to you.'" 15 God also said to Moses, "You must say this to the Israelites, ‘The Lord50—the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob - has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my memorial from generation to generation.'

48tn The verb form used here is אֶהְיֶה (ʾehyeh), the Qal imperfect, first person common singular, of the verb הָיָה (hayah, “to be”). It forms an excellent paronomasia with the name. So when God used the verb to express his name, he used this form saying, “I am.” When his people refer to him as Yahweh, which is the third person masculine singular form of the same verb, they say “he is.”

50sn Heb “Yahweh,” traditionally rendered “the LORD.” First the verb “I AM” was used (v. 14) in place of the name to indicate its meaning and to remind Moses of God’s promise to be with him (v. 12). Now in v. 15 the actual name is used for clear identification: “Yahweh…has sent me.” This is the name that the patriarchs invoked and proclaimed in the land of Canaan.

(from The NET Bible®, Copyright © 1996-2006 by Biblical Studies Press, L.L.C., Dallas, Texas)

https://netbible.org/bible/Exodus+3:14


OT:3068, "LORD." The Tetragrammaton YHWH appears without its own vowels, and its exact pronunciation is debated (Jehovah, Yehovah, Jahweh, Yahweh). The Hebrew text does insert the vowels for ‘adonay, and Jewish students and scholars read ‘adonay whenever they see the Tetragrammaton. This use of the word occurs 6,828 times. The word appears in every period of biblical Hebrew.

(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

View attachment 2064


Isaiah 46:5 To whom would you liken Me And make Me equal and compare Me, That we would be alike? 9 …I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me…

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD [YHWH], and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.”

Isaiah 44:6 This is what the LORD [YHWH], Israel’s king, says, their protector, the LORD [YHWH] who commands armies: “I AM THE FIRST AND I AM THE LAST, there is no God but me.

These are the words of one person, YHWH, and He is speaking in reference to Himself to the exclusion of any other person(s). He specifically states that He alone is God, so there can’t be another person who is also God. He makes it very clear that He has no equal and there is no other person like Him. He is SELF-Existent, not selves-existent! He is the Eternal or existing ONE, not the Eternal or existing three! These statements by YHWH God Himself make it impossible that there are three persons who all exist as God!
Since you seem to know the proper pronunciation of YHWH why do you use "Jehovah". I assumed you were a JW who insist without any evidence that the Creator's name is "Jehovah" and MUST be pronounced Jehovah even when shown evidence to the contrary.
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
These are the words of one person, YHWH. He alone is God and there is no other person who is God. He is SELF-Existent (not selves-existent) or the existing ONE (not three)! The words of YHWH alone make it impossible that there are three persons who all exist as God!
The problem here is that we're ignoring the fact that the person, personage, or persona belongs to God who is the origin of that persona. God's persona, like all personas is what is presented to the world, but the father is never presented to the world. What is presented to the world are representations, e.g. pillar of fire at night, pillar of smoke during the day, burning bush that is never consumed, etc.

By definition, representations, or representative are not who or what they represent. However, when existence is seen as a characteristic of or from God who is the origin of existence itself, as Paul points out in 1 Corinthians 8:6, it becomes clear that God is the father, but this doesn't negate the fact that Christ is the means by which everything comes into existence including whatever ideas we may have about God.

If you want to look at God, you have to look at his image, and that image is Christ. Therefore, for all practical intents and purposes, he might as well be God. This is not to say that God is a Trinity, but only to spotlight that it is understandable how people could come to these conclusions.

I am denotes existence, but it is the word itself that gives this name life. Jesus says, "I am the life". He is life itself. He is this attribute of God.
 

Μιχαήλ

New Member
Since you seem to know the proper pronunciation of YHWH why do you use "Jehovah". I assumed you were a JW who insist without any evidence that the Creator's name is "Jehovah" and MUST be pronounced Jehovah even when shown evidence to the contrary.
You assumed wrong! Never did I claim to know the proper way to pronounce God’s name, and I didn’t use “Jehovah” in reference to God, I used the tetragrammaton, YHWH. The clear point of my post is the fact that when God revealed His name to Moses and the Hebrews, He was revealing that He is the "existing ONE!" I further demonstrated that His words alone preclude the idea that God exists as three persons. However, you choose to be willfully ignorant of this and make a big deal out of something of no significance in order to deflect from your inability to refute my argument. The name YHWH describes exactly who God is and the manner in which He exists, and comprehending the true meaning of the words He uses to describe Himself supersedes the exact pronunciation of the words used to describe Him. When God told Moses, "You must say this to the Israelites, ‘The LORD (YHWH) the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob - has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my memorial from generation to generation,” it wasn’t merely so they would know what to call Him or how to properly pronounce His name, but rather, it was to reveal exactly what and who He is. YHWH God is inarguably and unequivocally, ONE person!
 

Μιχαήλ

New Member
So does that mean to you that Jesus is God the Father as well as the Son Michael the arc angel?

Blessings,
james
Nothing I said even remotely implies that I think Jesus is Michael the archangel. Jesus IS NOT Michael the archangel! Jesus is the Almighty God, YHWH, existing as a man. YHWH acquired a genuine human existence in order to die for the sins of mankind.
 

jamesh

Active member
Nothing I said even remotely implies that I think Jesus is Michael the archangel. Jesus IS NOT Michael the archangel! Jesus is the Almighty God, YHWH, existing as a man. YHWH acquired a genuine human existence in order to die for the sins of mankind.
I am not saying Jesus is Michael the archangel. The Jehovah Witnesses teach that. Your name means Michael the archangel, that's your handle. And since you don't believe there is no so-called Trinity I would like you to please explain Hebrews 1:5-8.

"Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee?" And again, I will be a Father to Him and He shall be a Son to Me?" vs6, And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him: vs7, And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels winds And His ministers a flame of fire." vs8, "But of the Son He says, Thy throne, O God is forever and ever, And righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom." How many persons are in view in these verses?

Lastly, how many persons are in this verse? Mark 1:11, and a voice came out of the heavens, "Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased."

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

Μιχαήλ

New Member
I am not saying Jesus is Michael the archangel. The Jehovah Witnesses teach that. Your name means Michael the archangel, that's your handle. And since you don't believe there is no so-called Trinity I would like you to please explain Hebrews 1:5-8.

"Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee?" And again, I will be a Father to Him and He shall be a Son to Me?" vs6, And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, "And let all the angels of God worship Him: vs7, And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels winds And His ministers a flame of fire." vs8, "But of the Son He says, Thy throne, O God is forever and ever, And righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom." How many persons are in view in these verses?

Lastly, how many persons are in this verse? Mark 1:11, and a voice came out of the heavens, "Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased."

IN GOD THE SON,
james
My name is Michael.

I created this thread in order to focus on the subject at hand, so I’m not going off topic. I’ve demonstrated from the words of YHWH God Himself that He is unipersonal and there can’t be nor is there more than one person who is God, so feel free to employ some critical thinking and reconcile Hebrews 1:5-8 with the thousands of Old Testament passages which establish God's absolute oneness. The New Testament passages which distinguish between the Father and Son (and occasionally the Holy Spirit) must be understood in light of these Old Testament passages, not the other way around. YHWH’s revelation to Moses and the Hebrew people of who He is and the manner in which He exists is foundational to all New Testament revelation of such. The New Testament revelation wasn’t given so that one should go back and attempt to alter what has been established in the old.
 

Μιχαήλ

New Member
The problem here is that we're ignoring the fact that the person, personage, or persona belongs to God who is the origin of that persona. God's persona, like all personas is what is presented to the world, but the father is never presented to the world. What is presented to the world are representations, e.g. pillar of fire at night, pillar of smoke during the day, burning bush that is never consumed, etc.

By definition, representations, or representative are not who or what they represent. However, when existence is seen as a characteristic of or from God who is the origin of existence itself, as Paul points out in 1 Corinthians 8:6, it becomes clear that God is the father, but this doesn't negate the fact that Christ is the means by which everything comes into existence including whatever ideas we may have about God.

If you want to look at God, you have to look at his image, and that image is Christ. Therefore, for all practical intents and purposes, he might as well be God. This is not to say that God is a Trinity, but only to spotlight that it is understandable how people could come to these conclusions.

I am denotes existence, but it is the word itself that gives this name life. Jesus says, "I am the life". He is life itself. He is this attribute of God.
God IS a person!
 

101G

Well-known member
I said that christ and God's spirit are His Hands.

Just being a bit more specific.
GINOLJC, to all,
Well God is a Spirit, so he is his "OWN" hands as to speak.... as he is his "OWN" ARM, see Isaiah 63:5 again., and his "OWN" ARM, as his Hands is he himself, in flesh and bone Naturally with blood, which Isaiah chapter 53 states.

so, we do not agree with your assessment statement. now to be fair, if you disagree with Isaiah 63:5 and Isaiah chapter 53, then make your case, ... but by the scrip[tures, and not opinions.

thanks in advance.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

101G

Well-known member
His Spirit is God. He is God.
eve, listen to yourself, "His Spirit?"... God is the Spirit, so it's no his Spirit that is a separate "person", or being, it's the same PERSON, and the same being....... hello?

PICJAG, 101G.
 
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