The so called "Trinity" does not exist!

Μιχαήλ

New Member
Thanks for sharing your personal opinion, but scripture disagrees, e.g. 1 Corinthians 8:6
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live.

It isn’t merely my opinion, it’s fact, and in no way whatsoever does this passage indicate that God is not a person! Any entity who possesses a center of consciousness or mind with the capacity for rational thought is a person, so since God possesses such, He is a person. God created humans in His image, so if He isn’t a person then we aren’t persons. Since He is incorporeal, it’s best to understand the “image” as that which constitutes spiritual, intellectual, and emotional qualities rather than physical qualities, but notwithstanding, we are human persons and God is a divine person!
 

Andreas

Active member
I said Hands, not Hand.

Ok fine, but you didn't answer the question. Jesus said in John 4:24 that "God is Spirit". How do you explain this verse in view of your view that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are "hands". Is the Spirit, who is God, something else than the Holy Spirit in your view?
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
You assumed wrong! Never did I claim to know the proper way to pronounce God’s name, and I didn’t use “Jehovah” in reference to God, I used the tetragrammaton, YHWH. The clear point of my post is the fact that when God revealed His name to Moses and the Hebrews, He was revealing that He is the "existing ONE!" I further demonstrated that His words alone preclude the idea that God exists as three persons. However, you choose to be willfully ignorant of this and make a big deal out of something of no significance in order to deflect from your inability to refute my argument. The name YHWH describes exactly who God is and the manner in which He exists, and comprehending the true meaning of the words He uses to describe Himself supersedes the exact pronunciation of the words used to describe Him. When God told Moses, "You must say this to the Israelites, ‘The LORD (YHWH) the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob - has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my memorial from generation to generation,” it wasn’t merely so they would know what to call Him or how to properly pronounce His name, but rather, it was to reveal exactly what and who He is. YHWH God is inarguably and unequivocally, ONE person!
You just lost the battle and any respect you might be entitled to by accusing me of being willfully ignorant. I was not trying to refute anything you said. My point was only about the proper way to pronounce YHWH.
Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture, e.g. Trinity,””triune,””person,""being,""entity,""substance,""essence,"”nature,””who," Hypostatic union," etc., etc., All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore these words, and/or any other words, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.
Here yet again scriptural truths I have posted before, without any so-called unscriptural words or man made doctrines.
1. There is one God! The Father is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit. Numerous vss. e.g., John 6:27, Gal 1:1, Gal 1:3, Eph 6:23, Philippians 2:11, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:17 et. al.
2. There is one God! The Son is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit.
[1] Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
[2]Isaiah 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
[3]Luk 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
[4] Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[5] Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[6] Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him[God created the world, Gen 1:1], and the world knew him not.
[7] Joh 1:14 And the Word [acting on Himself] became flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[8] Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, μονογενὴς θεὸς ] which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
[9] John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
[10] Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [Jewish leaders speaking]
[11] Joh 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John speaking]
[12] Joh 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am [ אהיה/ehyeh, I am, Ex 3:14].
[13] John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Jesus] glory, and spake of him[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 6:1ff].
Isa 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple​
[14] Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
[15] Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was[Jesus was aware of His existence,with God, before the world was created.].
[16] Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine[Everything that belongs to the Father belongs to Jesus]; and I am glorified in them.
[17] Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, [Jesus] My Lord and my God. [Thomas addressed Jesus as God and Jesus praised him.]
[18] Act 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
[19] Rom 9:5
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever[Jesus called God]. Amen.
[20] 2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[21] Col 1:14
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

[Character Limit. Continued next post]​
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
[Previous Post Continued]

[22] Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[23] Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
[24] Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
[25] Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever[God calls the Son, God]: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[26] Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[27] Phi 2:6 Who, being [existing] in the form of God, thought it not something to be used to His advantage the being[present, active infinitive] equal with God:[The being equal to God was a then and there reality not something considered and declined.]
[28] 1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh[Jesus called God], is justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
[29] 1 Tim 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ[Jesus called God], which is our hope;
[If Jesus is not God and savior in vs,1 He is not Lord and savior in vs. 11. Same grammatical construction]
[30] 1 Tim 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;[The lamb is king of kings, Rev 17:14, Jesus is king of kings, Rev 19:16, God is Lord of Lords Deu 10:17]
[31] Tit 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God];
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[32] 2 Pet 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ[Jesus called God]:
[33] 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life[Jesus called God].
[34] Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17]: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
[35] Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS[יהוה/YHWH, Deu 10:17].
[36] Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 40:10].
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[יהוה/YHWH, Isa 44:6][/indent]
There is one God! The Holy Spirit is called/referred to as God, in scripture, but the Spirit is not the Father or the Son. Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27.
Scripture which identify the Holy Spirit as God
[1] Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
This passage, Act 5:3-4, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as God by equating lying to the H.S. with lying to God.
[2] Act 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.​
This passage Act 28:25-27, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying the H.S. spoke words which were spoken by YHWH, in Isa 6:8-10, below.
Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, [יהוה/YHWH] saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.​
= = = = = = = = = = =
[3] Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [O.T. see יהוה/YHWH, Jer 31:33-34]
This passage, Heb 10:15-17, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH, in Jer 31:33-34, below, were spoken by the H.S.
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, [יהוה/YHWH] I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​
= = = = = = = = = = =
[4] Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Ps 95:10]
11
So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) [O.T. יהוה/YHWH, Deu 1:34-35]
This passage, Heb 3:7-11, above, identifies the Holy Spirit as YHWH by saying words spoken by YHWH in Psa 95:10-11, and Deu 1:34-35, below, were spoken by the Holy Spirit.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
= = = = = = = = = =
Deu 1:34 And the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,​
There is one God! The Father, the Son, and the Spirit, all three are called/ referred to as God, in scripture, but each has a distinct mind, will, and self; John 16:13, 1 Cor 12:11, Philippians 2:5, John 5:26, Rom 8:27, Matthew 26:39.
 

Μιχαήλ

New Member
That's fine, you want some "critical" thinking then let's go to the Old Testament, specifically to Genesis 22:15-17. "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven." vs16, and SAID, "By Myself I have sworn, DECLARES the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

So, can you please explain from these Scriptures why an angel is calling out from heaven to Abraham two times instead of God calling out from heaven? And (2) why is this angel (who is another person by the way) swearing an oath on behalf of God saying he will multiply Abraham's seed?

Blessings,
james

ANGEL

מַלְאָךְ

OT:4397* mal'ak

a messenger, a representative
  • a messenger
  • an angel
  • the theophanic angel
(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright © 1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

The angel is a messenger or representative of YHWH, so he can speak on YHWH’s behalf because he’s sent with YHWH”s complete authority. In some instances it is clearly a theophany who is interacting with humans, which is a manifestation or appearance of God. LORD=YHWH.

Genesis 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest time of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing across from him. When he saw them he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground… 16 When the men got up to leave, they looked out over Sodom. (Now Abraham was walking with them to see them on their way.) 17 Then the LORD said, "Should I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 After all, Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all the nations on the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using his name. 19 I have chosen him so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just. Then the LORD will give to Abraham what he promised him." 20 So the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so blatant 21 that I must go down and see if they are as wicked as the outcry suggests. If not, I want to know." 22 The two men turned and headed toward Sodom, but Abraham was still standing before the LORD… 19:1 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening while Lot was sitting in the city's gateway. When Lot saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face toward the ground…

Judges 6:11 The LORD's angelic messenger came and sat down under the oak tree in Ophrah owned by Joash the Abiezrite. He arrived while Joash's son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress so he could hide it from the Midianites. 12 The LORD's messenger appeared and said to him, "The LORD is with you, courageous warrior!" 13 Gideon said to him, "Pardon me, but if the LORD is with us, why has such disaster overtaken us? Where are all his miraculous deeds our ancestors told us about? They said, 'Did the LORD not bring us up from Egypt?' But now the LORD has abandoned us and handed us over to Midian." 14 Then the LORD himself turned to him and said, "You have the strength. Deliver Israel from the power of the Midianites! Have I not sent you?" 15 Gideon said to him, "But Lord, how can I deliver Israel? Just look! My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the youngest in my family." 16 The LORD said to him, "Ah, but I will be with you! You will strike down the whole Midianite army." 17 Gideon said to him, "If you really are pleased with me, then give me a sign as proof that it is really you speaking with me. 18 Do not leave this place until I come back with a gift and present it to you." The LORD said, "I will stay here until you come back." 19 Gideon went and prepared a young goat, along with unleavened bread made from an ephah of flour. He put the meat in a basket and the broth in a pot. He brought the food to him under the oak tree and presented it to him. 20 God's messenger said to him, "Put the meat and unleavened bread on this rock, and pour out the broth." Gideon did as instructed. 21 The LORD's messenger touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of his staff. Fire flared up from the rock and consumed the meat and unleavened bread. The LORD's messenger then disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the LORD's messenger, he said, "Oh no! Master, LORD! I have seen the LORD's messenger face to face!" 23 The LORD said to him, "You are safe! Do not be afraid! You are not going to die!"

(from The NET Bible®, Copyright © 1996-2006 by Biblical Studies Press, L.L.C., Dallas, Texas, www.bible.org. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)

Exactly what did you hope to accomplish in questioning why an angel is speaking on behalf of YHWH? It doesn’t change the fact that by His own words YHWH God has established that He is one person. He is God alone and there is not another person who is also God, period!
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live.

It isn’t merely my opinion, it’s fact, and in no way whatsoever does this passage indicate that God is not a person!
It indicates that the father, and only the father is God. By definition, a persona is "a mask; what is presented to the world", and what is presented to the world is Christ. Christ is the face or mask of God. Christ is God personified. Christ is the persona of God. He comes from God, and is the means through which everything exists including existence itself. He is "the alpha and the omega". The Father isn't any of those things, but the origin of everything, thus he can't be a person. Christ removes the mask to reveal the father, but the father doesn't have to wear a mask under a mask. God is not two-faced.
Any entity who possesses a center of consciousness or mind with the capacity for rational thought is a person,
False. You're conflating who one is with their persona. The mind is never presented to the world. No one has ever seen your mind, but only the persona you present to the world. Science has yet to discover or examine anyone's mind.
so since God possesses such, He is a person.
Fallacy of the Non Sequitur. God may have thoughts, but it doesn't then follow that he is a person. I have thoughts, but my thoughts are not who I am, nor are they the persona presented to the world.
God created humans in His image, so if He isn’t a person then we aren’t persons.
Correct. I am not the persona presented to the world. The masks we all wear are not who we are anymore than the clothes worn are who we are.
Since He is incorporeal, it’s best to understand the “image” as that which constitutes spiritual, intellectual, and emotional qualities rather than physical qualities, but notwithstanding, we are human persons and God is a divine person!
Perhaps, but irrelevant to your point.
 

Μιχαήλ

New Member
You just lost the battle and any respect you might be entitled to by accusing me of being willfully ignorant. I was not trying to refute anything you said. My point was only about the proper way to pronounce YHWH.
Anti-Trinitarians endlessly squabble and bicker about words, used by Trinitarians, trying to express the nature of God, as revealed in scripture, e.g. Trinity,””triune,””person,""being,""entity,""substance,""essence,"”nature,””who," Hypostatic union," etc., etc., All words are inherently finite and imperfect, therefore these words, and/or any other words, are totally inadequate to describe God, the infinite, perfect, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent. But the fact that human words are finite, limited and imperfect does not prove or disprove anything about the doctrine of the Trinity.
I don't see that I've lost anything other than some of my lunchbreak time, and I'm not at all concerned if you do or don't respect me. You ARE being willfully, and this inane post of yours further demonstrates that. The subject of this thread is in no way about the proper way to pronounce YHWH or the dispute of some over certain words used by Trinitarians. This thread is specifically about the words YHWH uses in reference to Himself, words which are not meaningless and which are easily understood and enable us to comprehend who God is and the manner in which He exists. His words absolutely disprove the existence of a Trinity!

Isaiah 46:5 To whom would you liken Me And make Me equal and compare Me, That we would be alike? 9 …I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me

Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD [YHWH], and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.”

Isaiah 44:6 This is what the LORD [YHWH], Israel’s king, says, their protector, the LORD [YHWH] who commands armies: “I AM THE FIRST AND I AM THE LAST, there is no God but me.

Isaiah 44:24 This is what the LORD [YHWH], your protector, says, the one who formed you in the womb: “I am the LORD [YHWH], who made everything, who alone stretched out the sky, who fashioned the earth all by myself...

These are the words of one person, YHWH, and He is speaking in reference to Himself to the exclusion of any other person(s). He specifically states that He alone is God, so there can’t be another person who is also God. He makes it very clear that He has no equal and there is no other person like Him. He alone is the creator of all existence. He is SELF-Existent, not selves existent! He is the Eternal or existing ONE, the not Eternal or existing three! These statements by YHWH God Himself make it impossible that there are three persons who all exist as God!
 

Μιχαήλ

New Member
It indicates that the father, and only the father is God. By definition, a persona is "a mask; what is presented to the world", and what is presented to the world is Christ. Christ is the face or mask of God. Christ is God personified. Christ is the persona of God. He comes from God, and is the means through which everything exists including existence itself. He is "the alpha and the omega". The Father isn't any of those things, but the origin of everything, thus he can't be a person. Christ removes the mask to reveal the father, but the father doesn't have to wear a mask under a mask. God is not two-faced.

False. You're conflating who one is with their persona. The mind is never presented to the world. No one has ever seen your mind, but only the persona you present to the world. Science has yet to discover or examine anyone's mind.

Fallacy of the Non Sequitur. God may have thoughts, but it doesn't then follow that he is a person. I have thoughts, but my thoughts are not who I am, nor are they the persona presented to the world.

Correct. I am not the persona presented to the world. The masks we all wear are not who we are anymore than the clothes worn are who we are.

Perhaps, but irrelevant to your point.
Did you come up with this utter nonsense all by yourself? Having corporeal existence is not what qualifies one as being a person. A person is concrete, incorporeal, conscious substance characterized by thought, volition, and feelings.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians…

When a human dies their body stays on earth and is buried, but who they are as a person (which is spirit) goes to reside with God. This state of existence is possible only due to the fact that having a body isn’t essential to being a person.

John 4:23 …an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Matthew 1:18 the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. 20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

God (the Father) is spirit. Specifically, He is the Holy Spirit! The term “spirit” describes the kind of substance a person is. Humans are corporeal persons (both spirit and body), and God is an incorporeal person (spirit absent of body).
 

shnarkle

Well-known member
Did you come up with this utter nonsense all by yourself?
Evidently, you would rather engage in snide remarks than an honest discussion.
Having corporeal existence is not what qualifies one as being a person.
Agreed. Why are you posting claims I haven't made? Perhaps you might try and reply to what I'm actually posting rather than these Strawman posts.
A person is concrete, incorporeal, conscious substance characterized by thought, volition, and feelings.
If you would rather make up brand new definitions for words, I'm going to have to pass. Here is the commonly accepted definition of the term. Person:
[ˈpərs(ə)n]

NOUN

  1. a human being regarded as an individual.
    "the porter was the last person to see her" · 
    [more]
    synonyms:
    human being · individual · 
    [more]
  2. grammar
    a category used in the classification of pronouns, possessive determiners, and verb forms, according to whether they indicate the speaker (first person), the addressee (second person), or a third party (third person).
  3. christian theology
    each of the three modes of being of God, namely the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit, who together constitute the Trinity.
a person (which is spirit)
False. See the definition above.
goes to reside with God.
Also known as "the breath of life". This is not who anyone is, but is the animating force of their life. God breathes into the dirt he formed, and Adam becomes a living soul. That's who Adam is. He is neither the dirt formed, nor the breath of life that animates his life.
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
I don't see that I've lost anything other than some of my lunchbreak time, and I'm not at all concerned if you do or don't respect me. You ARE being willfully, and this inane post of yours further demonstrates that. The subject of this thread is in no way about the proper way to pronounce YHWH or the dispute of some over certain words used by Trinitarians. This thread is specifically about the words YHWH uses in reference to Himself, words which are not meaningless and which are easily understood and enable us to comprehend who God is and the manner in which He exists. His words absolutely disprove the existence of a Trinity!
Isaiah 46:5 To whom would you liken Me And make Me equal and compare Me, That we would be alike? 9 …I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me…
Isaiah 45:5 "I am the LORD [YHWH], and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.”
Isaiah 44:6 This is what the LORD [YHWH], Israel’s king, says, their protector, the LORD [YHWH] who commands armies: “I AM THE FIRST AND I AM THE LAST, there is no God but me.
Isaiah 44:24 This is what the LORD [YHWH], your protector, says, the one who formed you in the womb: “I am the LORD [YHWH], who made everything, who alone stretched out the sky, who fashioned the earth all by myself...
These are the words of one person, YHWH, and He is speaking in reference to Himself to the exclusion of any other person(s). He specifically states that He alone is God, so there can’t be another person who is also God. He makes it very clear that He has no equal and there is no other person like Him. He alone is the creator of all existence. He is SELF-Existent, not selves existent! He is the Eternal or existing ONE, the not Eternal or existing three! These statements by YHWH God Himself make it impossible that there are three persons who all exist as God!
Typical heterodox litany. You quoted 4 verses and ignored the other 31,168.
 

Biblican

Well-known member
Did you come up with this utter nonsense all by yourself? Having corporeal existence is not what qualifies one as being a person. A person is concrete, incorporeal, conscious substance characterized by thought, volition, and feelings.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians…

When a human dies their body stays on earth and is buried, but who they are as a person (which is spirit) goes to reside with God. This state of existence is possible only due to the fact that having a body isn’t essential to being a person.

John 4:23 …an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

Matthew 1:18 the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. 20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

God (the Father) is spirit. Specifically, He is the Holy Spirit! The term “spirit” describes the kind of substance a person is. Humans are corporeal persons (both spirit and body), and God is an incorporeal person (spirit absent of body).
According to the scriptures God is one Spirit and He has a person also. The original language makes the distinction between soul and spirit they are two different elements and both are used to describe God the Father. Are you a Dichotomist?
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
According to the scriptures God is one Spirit and He has a person also. The original language makes the distinction between soul and spirit they are two different elements and both are used to describe God the Father. Are you a Dichotomist?
The Father has a person, the Son has a person and the Holy Spirit has a person.
The First Apology of Justin. Chap. XXXVI. —
But when you hear the utterances of the prophets spoken as it were personally, you must not suppose that they are spoken by the inspired themselves, but by the Divine Word who moves them. For sometimes He declares things that are to come to pass, in the manner of one who foretells the future; sometimes He speaks as from the person of God the Lord and Father of all; sometimes as from the person of Christ; sometimes as from the person of the people answering the Lord or His Father, just as you can see even in your own writers, one man being the writer of the whole, but introducing the persons who converse.
Chap. XXXVII. — Utterances of the Father.
And that this too may be clear to you, there were spoken from the person of the Father through Isaiah the prophet, the following words: “The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib; but Israel doth not know, and My people hath not understood. Woe, sinful nation, a people full of sins, a wicked seed, children that are transgressors, ye have forsaken the Lord.”47 And again elsewhere, when the same prophet speaks in like manner from the person of the Father, “What is the house that ye will build for Me? saith the Lord.
Chap. XXXVIII. — Utterances of the Son.
And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks from the person of Christ, the utterances are of this sort: “I have spread out My hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to those who walk in a way that is not good.” (Isa_65:2) And again: “I gave My back to the scourges, and My cheeks to the buffetings; I turned not away My face from the shame of spittings; and the Lord was My helper: therefore was I not confounded: but I set My face as a firm rock; and I knew that I should not be ashamed, for He is near that justifieth Me.”
Chap. XXXVI For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, ‘Who is this King of glory?’ And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, ‘The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.’ For every one will confess that not one of those who presided over the gates of the temple at Jerusalem would venture to say concerning Solomon, though he was so glorious a king, or concerning the ark of testimony, ‘Who is this King of glory?’
Dionysus II. - The Gospel According to Luke.
Blessed art Thou, O Lord! How great is this example of the endurance of evil that Thou hast shown us in Thine own person! how great, too, the pattern of lowliness! Howbeit, the Lord has given us this example, to show us that we ought not to give up offering our good counsel to our brethren, even should nothing remarkable be effected by our words.​
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Chap. XXXVI For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, ‘Who is this King of glory?’ And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, ‘The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.’

Just to clarify...

Does “His” highlighted above refer to the Holy Spirit?
 

Biblican

Well-known member
The Father has a person, the Son has a person and the Holy Spirit has a person.
The First Apology of Justin. Chap. XXXVI. —
But when you hear the utterances of the prophets spoken as it were personally, you must not suppose that they are spoken by the inspired themselves, but by the Divine Word who moves them. For sometimes He declares things that are to come to pass, in the manner of one who foretells the future; sometimes He speaks as from the person of God the Lord and Father of all; sometimes as from the person of Christ; sometimes as from the person of the people answering the Lord or His Father, just as you can see even in your own writers, one man being the writer of the whole, but introducing the persons who converse.​
Chap. XXXVII. — Utterances of the Father.​
And that this too may be clear to you, there were spoken from the person of the Father through Isaiah the prophet, the following words: “The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib; but Israel doth not know, and My people hath not understood. Woe, sinful nation, a people full of sins, a wicked seed, children that are transgressors, ye have forsaken the Lord.”47 And again elsewhere, when the same prophet speaks in like manner from the person of the Father, “What is the house that ye will build for Me? saith the Lord.​
Chap. XXXVIII. — Utterances of the Son.​
And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks from the person of Christ, the utterances are of this sort: “I have spread out My hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people, to those who walk in a way that is not good.” (Isa_65:2) And again: “I gave My back to the scourges, and My cheeks to the buffetings; I turned not away My face from the shame of spittings; and the Lord was My helper: therefore was I not confounded: but I set My face as a firm rock; and I knew that I should not be ashamed, for He is near that justifieth Me.”​
Chap. XXXVI For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, ‘Who is this King of glory?’ And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, ‘The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.’ For every one will confess that not one of those who presided over the gates of the temple at Jerusalem would venture to say concerning Solomon, though he was so glorious a king, or concerning the ark of testimony, ‘Who is this King of glory?’​
Dionysus II. - The Gospel According to Luke.​
Blessed art Thou, O Lord! How great is this example of the endurance of evil that Thou hast shown us in Thine own person! how great, too, the pattern of lowliness! Howbeit, the Lord has given us this example, to show us that we ought not to give up offering our good counsel to our brethren, even should nothing remarkable be effected by our words.​
The word soul, which is the person of anyone is only associated with the Father and Son in the scriptures but never the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is rendered in the neuter in the Greek and while there is no evidence in the original language to support the Holy Spirit as being a person, this does not mean that the Holy Spirit does not have a person. That is because God has ordained the spirit to operate with the soul. Therefore the person of the Holy Spirit is the person of the soul that it is unified with. Because the scriptures show us that the Spirit is God's Spirit (Matthew 10:20) and the Spirit of Jesus, (Romans 8:9) then we must conclude that the person of the Holy Spirit is the person of the Father and the Son. We can see this principle operating in John 14:15-18 with John 14:23. Through the union of the Holy Spirit uniting God's and Jesus' souls/persons, the Father and the Son are enable to indwell the believer through their mutual Spirit. I don't take this doctrine from any source other than the scriptures themselves and is the result of a thorough study of the subject over a two year period. Keep in mind that most studies of the Trinity or the tri-unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit were not taken from an analysis of the word usages in the original languages but by a study that was done by Origen, who as far as I can tell, did not examine the same areas.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Ghost tough fit. I don't deal with idiotic, inane questions about twisted words.

YOU posted this......

Chap. XXXVI For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, ‘Who is this King of glory?’ And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, ‘The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.’

I am simply asking you if “His” refers to “the Holy Spirit”?

Yes or No?
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
YOU posted this......
Chap. XXXVI For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, ‘Who is this King of glory?’ And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, ‘The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.’
I am simply asking you if “His” refers to “the Holy Spirit”?
Yes or No?
Suppose you tell me what you think and I'll tell if you are right or wrong? But bear in mind this is only one sentence, the correct conclusion must rely on the complete passage not just one sentence out-of-context.
And I can almost guarantee you will be wrong.
 
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