The so called "Trinity" does not exist!

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Suppose you tell me what you think and I'll tell if you are right or wrong? But bear in mind this is only one sentence, the correct conclusion must rely on the complete passage not just one sentence out-of-context.
And I can almost guarantee you will be wrong.

According to English grammar, “His” in the following paragraph would refer to “the Holy Spirit”...

For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, ‘Who is this King of glory?’ And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, ‘The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.’

So am I right or wrong?
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
According to English grammar, “His” in the following paragraph would refer to “the Holy Spirit”...
For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, ‘Who is this King of glory?’ And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, ‘The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.’
So am I right or wrong?
So far so good. Now what?
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
So far so good. Now what?

YOU posted this...

For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, ‘Who is this King of glory?’ And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, ‘The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.’

So if “His” refers to “the Holy Spirit” as you agree...

Then the Holy Spirit has a Father.

Correct?
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
YOU posted this...

For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, ‘Who is this King of glory?’ And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, ‘The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.’

So if “His” refers to “the Holy Spirit” as you agree...

Then the Holy Spirit has a Father.

Correct?
False. ONLY The Son has.
 

Andreas

Active member
No. the Holy spirit is His core of love.

Christ is the son.

Have you considered what Jesus said, "God is Spirit" (John 4:24)? To experience the Spirit is to experience God's presence (Psalm 139). To have the Holy Spirit abiding in the believer is to have Christ abiding in the believer (John 14-16). According to Romans 8 all these terms refer to the same Spirit, who is God: Spirit, Spirit of Christ, Spirit of God, Holy Spirit, Spirit of He who raised Christ from the dead. The abiding Spirit in the believer will raise the believer from the dead. The Spirit of God is more than just a "love" or feeling or commitment. To experience the Holy Spirit is to experience God Himself.
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
YOU posted this...
For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, ‘Who is this King of glory?’ And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, ‘The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.’
So if “His” refers to “the Holy Spirit” as you agree...
Then the Holy Spirit has a Father.

Correct?
Correct but... Now hit me with your "gotcha" response so I can show you that you don't know what you are talking about.
See e.g. the post #78 by @Andreas
"Have you considered what Jesus said, "God is Spirit" (John 4:24)? To experience the Spirit is to experience God's presence (Psalm 139). To have the Holy Spirit abiding in the believer is to have Christ abiding in the believer (John 14-16). According to Romans 8 all these terms refer to the same Spirit, who is God: Spirit, Spirit of Christ, Spirit of God, Holy Spirit, Spirit of He who raised Christ from the dead. The abiding Spirit in the believer will raise the believer from the dead. The Spirit of God is more than just a "love" or feeling or commitment. To experience the Holy Spirit is to experience God Himself."​
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Have you considered what Jesus said, "God is Spirit" (John 4:24)? To experience the Spirit is to experience God's presence (Psalm 139). To have the Holy Spirit abiding in the believer is to have Christ abiding in the believer (John 14-16). According to Romans 8 all these terms refer to the same Spirit, who is God: Spirit, Spirit of Christ, Spirit of God, Holy Spirit, Spirit of He who raised Christ from the dead. The abiding Spirit in the believer will raise the believer from the dead. The Spirit of God is more than just a "love" or feeling or commitment. To experience the Holy Spirit is to experience God Himself.
The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead, not same person as Jesus!
 

101G

Well-known member
The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead, not same person as Jesus!
Greetings in the Name of the Lord Jesus,
Well Jesus is the Holy Spirit, Whom he Jesus Raised up his own body, and here's why, John 2:18 "Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?"
John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?"
John 2:21 "But he spake of the temple of his body."

now I ask, did the Lord Jesus LIE when he said " I will raise it up?." your answer please.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Biblican

Well-known member
YOU posted this...

For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, ‘Who is this King of glory?’ And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, ‘The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.’

So if “His” refers to “the Holy Spirit” as you agree...

Then the Holy Spirit has a Father.

Correct?
The Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit (Matthew 10:20). God is Spirit (John 4:24), He is one Spirit. Therefore the Holy Spirit is eternal with no beginning and no end.
 

johnny guitar

Well-known member
Greetings in the Name of the Lord Jesus,
Well Jesus is the Holy Spirit, Whom he Jesus Raised up his own body, and here's why, John 2:18 "Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?"
John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?"
John 2:21 "But he spake of the temple of his body."

now I ask, did the Lord Jesus LIE when he said " I will raise it up?." your answer please.

PICJAG, 101G.
IOW BOTH The Son AND The Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead.
 

jamesh

Active member
ANGEL

מַלְאָךְ

OT:4397* mal'ak

a messenger, a representative
  • a messenger
  • an angel
  • the theophanic angel
(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright © 1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

The angel is a messenger or representative of YHWH, so he can speak on YHWH’s behalf because he’s sent with YHWH”s complete authority. In some instances it is clearly a theophany who is interacting with humans, which is a manifestation or appearance of God. LORD=YHWH.

Genesis 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent during the hottest time of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing across from him. When he saw them he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground… 16 When the men got up to leave, they looked out over Sodom. (Now Abraham was walking with them to see them on their way.) 17 Then the LORD said, "Should I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? 18 After all, Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all the nations on the earth will pronounce blessings on one another using his name. 19 I have chosen him so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just. Then the LORD will give to Abraham what he promised him." 20 So the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so blatant 21 that I must go down and see if they are as wicked as the outcry suggests. If not, I want to know." 22 The two men turned and headed toward Sodom, but Abraham was still standing before the LORD… 19:1 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening while Lot was sitting in the city's gateway. When Lot saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face toward the ground…

Judges 6:11 The LORD's angelic messenger came and sat down under the oak tree in Ophrah owned by Joash the Abiezrite. He arrived while Joash's son Gideon was threshing wheat in a winepress so he could hide it from the Midianites. 12 The LORD's messenger appeared and said to him, "The LORD is with you, courageous warrior!" 13 Gideon said to him, "Pardon me, but if the LORD is with us, why has such disaster overtaken us? Where are all his miraculous deeds our ancestors told us about? They said, 'Did the LORD not bring us up from Egypt?' But now the LORD has abandoned us and handed us over to Midian." 14 Then the LORD himself turned to him and said, "You have the strength. Deliver Israel from the power of the Midianites! Have I not sent you?" 15 Gideon said to him, "But Lord, how can I deliver Israel? Just look! My clan is the weakest in Manasseh, and I am the youngest in my family." 16 The LORD said to him, "Ah, but I will be with you! You will strike down the whole Midianite army." 17 Gideon said to him, "If you really are pleased with me, then give me a sign as proof that it is really you speaking with me. 18 Do not leave this place until I come back with a gift and present it to you." The LORD said, "I will stay here until you come back." 19 Gideon went and prepared a young goat, along with unleavened bread made from an ephah of flour. He put the meat in a basket and the broth in a pot. He brought the food to him under the oak tree and presented it to him. 20 God's messenger said to him, "Put the meat and unleavened bread on this rock, and pour out the broth." Gideon did as instructed. 21 The LORD's messenger touched the meat and the unleavened bread with the tip of his staff. Fire flared up from the rock and consumed the meat and unleavened bread. The LORD's messenger then disappeared. 22 When Gideon realized that it was the LORD's messenger, he said, "Oh no! Master, LORD! I have seen the LORD's messenger face to face!" 23 The LORD said to him, "You are safe! Do not be afraid! You are not going to die!"

(from The NET Bible®, Copyright © 1996-2006 by Biblical Studies Press, L.L.C., Dallas, Texas, www.bible.org. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)

Exactly what did you hope to accomplish in questioning why an angel is speaking on behalf of YHWH? It doesn’t change the fact that by His own words YHWH God has established that He is one person. He is God alone and there is not another person who is also God, period!

Now to get back to you Michael. There was a reason I brought the angel of the Lord and I'm going to explain my purpose in doing so. Btw, I agree with the NET Bible for the most part but they left out on very important point. Also, I want to be extremely clear that the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ.

At Genesis 22:1, Now it came about after those things God tested Abraham by having Abraham sacrifice his only son. At vs 10-11, "And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took the knife to slay his son." Vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, Here I am." Vs12, "And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son from Me."

Can you please explain or identify to all of us here who is the "he/person" in vs12 that stopped Abraham from slaying his son? Now, lets go to vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, "and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall posses the gate of their enemies." Vs13, And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because (or why) you have obeyed My voice."

There is no doubt in these verses that the angel of the Lord is God. In fact, Hebrews 6:13-14 backs this up. "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, vs14, "saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." Can you please explain why the Bible has inserted another person of the Godhead in all of these verses?

Why did not the writer of Genesis (which would be Moses) not just say at Genesis 22:11, "But GOD called to him from heaven ? Or at Genesis 22:15, "Then GOD called to Abraham a second time from heaven." At Exodus 20:22 (which Moses wrote as well) says, "Then the Lord said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I have SPOKEN TO YOU FROM HEAVEN." Here it explicitly says the Lord God called out of the heavens Himself.

You know what I think your problem is? You do not know the difference between the word "being" and "person." Being is defined as: "The state or quality of having existence. There is only one "being" of God, period. A person is: All the qualities constituting one that exist; the essence. We human beings are all distinct persons. What makes us one is are shared nature or essence. The same is true with God. The Bible identifies three and only three persons who the same nature or essence, that's what makes them one.

It's a universal law that all sons have the same nature as its father. And it is your nature that separates you from all that are not human beings. Birds give birth to other birds and so on. Do you know why Jesus Christ often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and as the "Son of God?" He's the Son of Man on His mothers side, Mary who is a human being. He's the Son of God on His Fathers side who is "deity." This why Jesus is the only person to have two natures. Now, what did I say that does not make sense to you?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

YeshuaFan

Well-known member
Now to get back to you Michael. There was a reason I brought the angel of the Lord and I'm going to explain my purpose in doing so. Btw, I agree with the NET Bible for the most part but they left out on very important point. Also, I want to be extremely clear that the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ.

At Genesis 22:1, Now it came about after those things God tested Abraham by having Abraham sacrifice his only son. At vs 10-11, "And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took the knife to slay his son." Vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, Here I am." Vs12, "And he said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son from Me."

Can you please explain or identify to all of us here who is the "he/person" in vs12 that stopped Abraham from slaying his son? Now, lets go to vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, "and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall posses the gate of their enemies." Vs13, And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because (or why) you have obeyed My voice."

There is no doubt in these verses that the angel of the Lord is God. In fact, Hebrews 6:13-14 backs this up. "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, vs14, "saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." Can you please explain why the Bible has inserted another person of the Godhead in all of these verses?

Why did not the writer of Genesis (which would be Moses) not just say at Genesis 22:11, "But GOD called to him from heaven ? Or at Genesis 22:15, "Then GOD called to Abraham a second time from heaven." At Exodus 20:22 (which Moses wrote as well) says, "Then the Lord said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I have SPOKEN TO YOU FROM HEAVEN." Here it explicitly says the Lord God called out of the heavens Himself.

You know what I think your problem is? You do not know the difference between the word "being" and "person." Being is defined as: "The state or quality of having existence. There is only one "being" of God, period. A person is: All the qualities constituting one that exist; the essence. We human beings are all distinct persons. What makes us one is are shared nature or essence. The same is true with God. The Bible identifies three and only three persons who the same nature or essence, that's what makes them one.

It's a universal law that all sons have the same nature as its father. And it is your nature that separates you from all that are not human beings. Birds give birth to other birds and so on. Do you know why Jesus Christ often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and as the "Son of God?" He's the Son of Man on His mothers side, Mary who is a human being. He's the Son of God on His Fathers side who is "deity." This why Jesus is the only person to have two natures. Now, what did I say that does not make sense to you?

IN GOD THE SON,
james
THE Angel of the Lord in the OT spoke for God and was Himself also very God!
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
Yes, the apostles recognized that Jesus' Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 3:14-17
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.​
Vs. 14 the veil is done away in Christ. vs. 16 "turn to the Lord" equated with being in Christ.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.​
Vs. 17 "The Lord," Jesus vs. 14, is that Spirit.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
Can you please explain or identify to all of us here who is the "he/person" in vs12 that stopped Abraham from slaying his son? Now, lets go to vs15, "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven, vs16, "and said, By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall posses the gate of their enemies." Vs13, And in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because (or why) you have obeyed My voice."

There is no doubt in these verses that the angel of the Lord is God.

Actually, there is no doubt in these verses that the angel (messenger) of the LORD is simply the LORD.

YHWH ("LORD" in all caps in English Bibles) is the "he/person" that stopped Abraham from slaying his son...

Genesis 22:15-16... And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

Can YOU please explain or identify to all of us here who is the "HE/PERSON" who said "By myself have I sworn"?
 

Biblican

Well-known member
2 Corinthians 3:14-17​
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.​
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.​
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.​
Vs. 14 the veil is done away in Christ. vs. 16 "turn to the Lord" equated with being in Christ.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.​
Vs. 17 "The Lord," Jesus vs. 14, is that Spirit.
Yes, Jesus' Spirit is the Holy Spirit. There is only one Spirit that is God (John 4:24) . The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and is also Jesus' Spirit (Romans 8:9) which is unified with Jesus' soul/person. If we believe that there is more than one "spirit" associated with God then we have jumped the fence into polytheism. God is one Spirit, the persons are distinct within the one spirit that is God.
 

OldShepherd

Well-known member
Yes, Jesus' Spirit is the Holy Spirit. There is only one Spirit that is God (John 4:24) . The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and is also Jesus' Spirit (Romans 8:9) which is unified with Jesus' soul/person. If we believe that there is more than one "spirit" associated with God then we have jumped the fence into polytheism. God is one Spirit, the persons are distinct within the one spirit that is God.
I can live with that.
 

jamesh

Active member
Actually, there is no doubt in these verses that the angel (messenger) of the LORD is simply the LORD.

YHWH ("LORD" in all caps in English Bibles) is the "he/person" that stopped Abraham from slaying his son...

Genesis 22:15-16... And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

Can YOU please explain or identify to all of us here who is the "HE/PERSON" who said "By myself have I sworn"?

You answered your own question when you said, "Actually, there is no doubt in these verses that the angel (messenger) of the LORD is simply the LORD." So what is there to "explain?"

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 
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