The Son Distinct from The Angels

[keiw]

Who in the world told you and Nathan that Jesus Christ is an angel/arc angel? Where in the Bible does it directly say Jesus is an angel? In fact, where did Jesus ever say he's an angel? This is going to be good!

IN GOD THE SON,
james

Psalm 45:7 teaches Jesus has a God--partners = angels
Heb 1:4 is clear--without getting that name( Jesus) given to him by God, he would be equal to the angels
1Thess 4:16--Upon Jesus return, he comes with the trumpet of God( announcing the ride of the white horse=righteous war) and with the voice of the archangel--it is his voice or do you think Michael loaned it to him?
Rev 6 = the ride of the white horse 6:2-he receives his crown( the establishment of Gods kingdom in heaven) Explained at Rev 12= the war in heaven-Michael took that ride--only Jesus gets the crown, proving Michaelis Jesus. 12:2=cries out in pain to give birth( to Gods kingdom)--that ride continues until this occurs-1Cor 15:24-28( at the conclusion of Rev 20 i believe)--Rev 19:11-Jesus shown riding the white horse to earth at Armageddon. You see Daniel 12:1--Itis Michael who stands up for Gods chosen in the last days.
The real reason Jesus teaches-John 20:17, Rev 3:12-- He has a God just like us-his Father.

 

[Nathan P]

Again I agree it has do with what the Bible says. So where in the BIBLE where Jesus stated he was an angel. Common sense dictates if the Bible does not say it then it's not true that Jesus is an angel. And btw, how can Jesus be an angel when the Bible teaches he's a created man like the rest of us?

If I as a man bark like a dog it does not mean I'm actually a dog. I'm still a human man by nature. Prove me wrong?

In Him,
james

The Word became flesh and thus the Word was not flesh until then.

 

[jamesh]

The Word became flesh and thus the Word was not flesh until then.

So what, that still doesn't make Jesus an angel. Your flat out wrong.
In Him,
james

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again keiw and Greetings nathan p

Just answer and that is before he got that name to be better than the angels he was equal to the angels correct?

He is the archangel.

I do not necessarily want to get into a three way discussion here with others besides both of you as I hold a different view to those participating. I believe that Jesus was born a human and is now glorified. When he was born he was lower than the Angles as far as his physical being because he was mortal. But at his birth he was greater than the Angels, as he was as a result of his conception and birth The Only Begotten Son of God. When resurrected he was already greater than the Angels. Michael and Gabriel stand in the Presence of God. Jesus, because of his status and what was accomplished in him, was invited to sit down at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne.

Kind regards
Trevor
,

 

[Nathan P]

Greetings again keiw and Greetings nathan p


I do not necessarily want to get into a three way discussion here with others besides both of you as I hold a different view to those participating. I believe that Jesus was born a human and is now glorified. When he was born he was lower than the Angles as far as his physical being because he was mortal. But at his birth he was greater than the Angels, as he was as a result of his conception and birth The Only Begotten Son of God. When resurrected he was already greater than the Angels. Michael and Gabriel stand in the Presence of God. Jesus, because of his status and what was accomplished in him, was invited to sit down at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne.

Kind regards
Trevor
,

It was not until he was back in heaven did he receive a name above the angels. At no time before that was he above the angels. Can you provide the scripture that he was greater than the angels at his birth?

 

[keiw]

Greetings again keiw and Greetings nathan p


I do not necessarily want to get into a three way discussion here with others besides both of you as I hold a different view to those participating. I believe that Jesus was born a human and is now glorified. When he was born he was lower than the Angles as far as his physical being because he was mortal. But at his birth he was greater than the Angels, as he was as a result of his conception and birth The Only Begotten Son of God. When resurrected he was already greater than the Angels. Michael and Gabriel stand in the Presence of God. Jesus, because of his status and what was accomplished in him, was invited to sit down at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne.

Kind regards
Trevor
,

As you said--invited to sit at Gods right hand--Not his own right hand, making him not God. There is only 1 God.
Coll 1:15--Jesus is the firstborn of all creation--Trinity clergys twist this because it exposes them. Any one who can understand english knows 100% all creation occurred at the beginning.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again keiw and Nathan P,

As you said--invited to sit at Gods right hand--Not his own right hand, making him not God. There is only 1 God.

Yes, I believe that there is one God, Yahweh, (not the erroneous form of the YHWH Name "Jehovah"), God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection (of his human body).

It was not until he was back in heaven did he receive a name above the angels. At no time before that was he above the angels. Can you provide the scripture that he was greater than the angels at his birth?

Luke 2:10–11 (KJV): 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[jamesh]

Of course it does not, therefore (like you just stated), "that it was never there." In logic, what your doing Nathan is making what is known as "a argument from silence." This means you cannot demonstrate what God has NOT said or done. No one can.

Only things that actually occur can be expected to leave any evidence from which we may construct a positive case. Yur problem with the fundamentals of basic rational thought continues which is proved by your answer above. In short, your wrong as usual.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[keiw]

Greetings again keiw and Nathan P,

Yes, I believe that there is one God, Yahweh, (not the erroneous form of the YHWH Name "Jehovah"), God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection (of his human body).

Luke 2:10–11 (KJV): 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Kind regards
Trevor

He is the archangel. The name Jesus( as a mortal, God gave to him) is the name that made him better than the angels. God did all the works through Jesus( Acts 2:22, 1Cor 8:5-6)-- Jesus took no credit. He wont even accept glory from men. Mark 10:17-18, John 5:19)- because the Father deserves the glory from men.
Yes Jesus became a savior by laying down his perfect life as a ransom for many. If he failed, which he could have, he wouldn't be a savior. He had to succeed to be a savior, or as Isaiah calls him a eternal Father, It was not calling him THE Father though.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again keiw,

He is the archangel.

I anticipate that this is the traditional view shared by the JWs. I do not want to discuss this at length here, but I do not accept that Jesus pre-existed. I believe he was the human born with God the Father as his Father, and Mary his mother. He is still a human, exalted after his resurrection to sit at the right hand of God awaiting his soon return to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years. I know that this post and my previous post has stated some things contrary to JW teaching, but I have only briefly mentioned these, and do not see the need to discuss these at length.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[jamesh]

I maintain that Jesus Christ did preexist His birth by appearing physically in the Old Testament as "The angel of the Lord." This "DOES NOT MEAN JESUS IS AN ACTUAL ANGEL." His first appearance as the angel of the Lord is at Genesis 16:7. Please read it and one cannot help to notice what he tells Hagar and what Hagar says at vs13.

Then read Genesis 17:1-2 and please tell me who appeared (physically) to Abraham and multiplied his descendants? I'm just touching the surface on this topic, there's a ton of more Biblical information.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[keiw]

I maintain that Jesus Christ did preexist His birth by appearing physically in the Old Testament as "The angel of the Lord." This "DOES NOT MEAN JESUS IS AN ACTUAL ANGEL." His first appearance as the angel of the Lord is at Genesis 16:7. Please read it and one cannot help to notice what he tells Hagar and what Hagar says at vs13.

Then read Genesis 17:1-2 and please tell me who appeared (physically) to Abraham and multiplied his descendants? I'm just touching the surface on this topic, there's a ton of more Biblical information.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

The bible doesn't teach-God the son ever.-- YHWH(Jehovah) appeared at Gen 17:1-2-- It does not say he appeared physically. The NT clearly teaches--No man has ever seen God.

 

[keiw]

Greetings again keiw,

I anticipate that this is the traditional view shared by the JWs. I do not want to discuss this at length here, but I do not accept that Jesus pre-existed. I believe he was the human born with God the Father as his Father, and Mary his mother. He is still a human, exalted after his resurrection to sit at the right hand of God awaiting his soon return to establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth for the 1000 years. I know that this post and my previous post has stated some things contrary to JW teaching, but I have only briefly mentioned these, and do not see the need to discuss these at length.

Kind regards
Trevor

No humans live in heaven( Gods dwelling place) its the spirit realm.

 

[jamesh]

The bible doesn't teach-God the son ever.-- YHWH(Jehovah) appeared at Gen 17:1-2-- It does not say he appeared physically. The NT clearly teaches--No man has ever seen God.

Oh yes it does and I'll show you in a minute, but first I have a question for you. At Genesis 16:7 the angel of the Lord appears to Hagar and he tells her at vs10, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be to many to count. He also says that Hagar will have a son who will be named Ishmael, Genesis 16:11-12.

Hagar says at vs13, "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou art a God who sees:" for she said, Have I even remained alive here AFTER SEEING HIM?" Btw, the descendants of Hagar were the Arabs that are still here today.

Now at Genesis 17:1-2 "the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." Vs3, "And Abraham fell on his face, and God talked with him saying etc."

I maintain the same being that multiplied Hagar's descendants is the same being who multiplied Abraham's descendants, the preincarnate Jesus Christ. If you knew your Bible you would have discovered that Jesus said at John 5:37, "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form." And at John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hat seen the Father."

So getting back to Genesis 17 it's not the Father who appeared to Hagar or to Abraham, it was the Son. Also at Genesis 17:22 it states, "And when He finished talking with Abraham, GOD WENT UP FROM ABRAHAM." In other words, God in the person of Jesus Christ went straight up north from Abraham. See the wonders of the Bible when you actually study this stuff? This is also why I can say:

IN GOD THE SON, OR EVEN IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
james

 

[keiw]

Oh yes it does and I'll show you in a minute, but first I have a question for you. At Genesis 16:7 the angel of the Lord appears to Hagar and he tells her at vs10, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be to many to count. He also says that Hagar will have a son who will be named Ishmael, Genesis 16:11-12.

Hagar says at vs13, "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou art a God who sees:" for she said, Have I even remained alive here AFTER SEEING HIM?" Btw, the descendants of Hagar were the Arabs that are still here today.

Now at Genesis 17:1-2 "the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly." Vs3, "And Abraham fell on his face, and God talked with him saying etc."

I maintain the same being that multiplied Hagar's descendants is the same being who multiplied Abraham's descendants, the preincarnate Jesus Christ. If you knew your Bible you would have discovered that Jesus said at John 5:37, "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form." And at John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except he who is from God, he hat seen the Father."

So getting back to Genesis 17 it's not the Father who appeared to Hagar or to Abraham, it was the Son. Also at Genesis 17:22 it states, "And when He finished talking with Abraham, GOD WENT UP FROM ABRAHAM." In other words, God in the person of Jesus Christ went straight up north from Abraham. See the wonders of the Bible when you actually study this stuff? This is also why I can say:

IN GOD THE SON, OR EVEN IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
james

Angel of YHWH(Jehovah) is mentioned at Gen 16--- Jehovah is God, the angel is not. He is representing Jehovah.
Every spot in OT where-GOD or LORD all capitols is in your translation=YHWH( Jehovah) belongs there--wicked men removed Gods name, nearly 6800 spots OT alone. They had no right, satans will caused it. The religions using the altered translations are misleading all into supporting satans will over Gods will. God put his name in those spots because he wants it there. Those that love and respect Gods will use correct translations. The NEW world translation fixed those errors-nearly 6800 places OT--200 NT where OT is quoted and the name belongs.. These are undeniable facts.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again keiw,

No humans live in heaven( Gods dwelling place) its the spirit realm.

Jesus, the Son of God, is now a glorified human, made immortal and he is seated at the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father in God the Father's Throne. He is soon to return to sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4, Matthew 19:28, Revelation 3:21-22. I do not know if JWs have a unique view of "the spirit realm". I believe that a Spirit Body such as Jesus now has, is substantial, similar to when he was transfigured on the Mount of Transfiguration. Such a body can withhold its glory, similar to when the Angels appeared in their Spirit Body and were mistaken to be men at first. A Spirit Body does not need air to breathe or food and water to survive, but are sustained by God's Spirit Power. The Spirit Body of Jesus is his human body raised and changed, not replaced. The tomb was empty, while David and the faithful are still in the grave. The faithful will be raised at the return of Christ and after the judgement will be changed into a Spirit Body.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[jamesh]

Angel of YHWH(Jehovah) is mentioned at Gen 16--- Jehovah is God, the angel is not. He is representing Jehovah.
Every spot in OT where-GOD or LORD all capitols is in your translation=YHWH( Jehovah) belongs there--wicked men removed Gods name, nearly 6800 spots OT alone. They had no right, satans will caused it. The religions using the altered translations are misleading all into supporting satans will over Gods will. God put his name in those spots because he wants it there. Those that love and respect Gods will use correct translations. The NEW world translation fixed those errors-nearly 6800 places OT--200 NT where OT is quoted and the name belongs.. These are undeniable facts.

You said, "Jehovah is God, the angel is not." Your first problem with this statement is the fact that your "assuming" the angel of the Lord is an actual angel. He is not an angel because the Hebrew word for angel is "malak." It can mean an actual angel but the word simply means "messenger." John the Baptist is called an angel at Malachi 1:3 and we all know John is not an angel. In fact, the name of the prophet Malachi comes from the word "malak" and he is not an angel either.

You second problem comes from Genesis 22: at vs11 and 15 the angel of the Lord calls out to Abraham 2 times and he says at vs16, "and said, By Myself I have sworn declares the Lord because you have done this thing , and have not withheld your son, you only son," Vs17, indeed, I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars in the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore."

Remember, the Lord God Almighty said the same thing to Abraham at Genesis 17:1-2 where God physically appeared to Abraham. Ask yourself this question? If the angel of the Lord is just that, an angel why does God use him to call out from heaven two times when God Himself called out from heaven at Exodus 20:22 and at Mark 1:11?

Just so you know, you have bigger problems to deal with than the angel of the Lord calling out of heaven. You stated that the angel is representing Jehovah then tell me can angels swear oaths on behalf of God Himself? "NO!" Look at the word at Hebrews 6:13-17, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF." vS14, "saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you."

Vs15, And thus, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. Vs16, "For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath is given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. Vs17, IN THE SAME WAY GOD, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of HIs purpose, interposed with an oath." In short, it was God who swore the oath, not an angel. Besides, swearing an oath is matter of ones own conscience which means you cannot swear an oath on behalf of another.

Oh yea, I almost forgot, your comments on how the NWT fixed and corrected errors. Really, show me my errors from the NWT that I have taken out of context anything I stated from Genesis 22, or even from Hebrews 6:13-17?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
james

 

[keiw]

Greetings again keiw,

Jesus, the Son of God, is now a glorified human, made immortal and he is seated at the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father in God the Father's Throne. He is soon to return to sit upon the Throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4, Matthew 19:28, Revelation 3:21-22. I do not know if JWs have a unique view of "the spirit realm". I believe that a Spirit Body such as Jesus now has, is substantial, similar to when he was transfigured on the Mount of Transfiguration. Such a body can withhold its glory, similar to when the Angels appeared in their Spirit Body and were mistaken to be men at first. A Spirit Body does not need air to breathe or food and water to survive, but are sustained by God's Spirit Power. The Spirit Body of Jesus is his human body raised and changed, not replaced. The tomb was empty, while David and the faithful are still in the grave. The faithful will be raised at the return of Christ and after the judgement will be changed into a Spirit Body.

Kind regards
Trevor

No flesh lives in heaven. Jesus was raised a spirit, from death as a mortal. He can still appear mortal any time he wants to. As he did with Thomas, but on the first day, no one recognized him. As well later he appeared behind a locked door. Flesh cannot do that.

 

[keiw]

You said, "Jehovah is God, the angel is not." Your first problem with this statement is the fact that your "assuming" the angel of the Lord is an actual angel. He is not an angel because the Hebrew word for angel is "malak." It can mean an actual angel but the word simply means "messenger." John the Baptist is called an angel at Malachi 1:3 and we all know John is not an angel. In fact, the name of the prophet Malachi comes from the word "malak" and he is not an angel either.

You second problem comes from Genesis 22: at vs11 and 15 the angel of the Lord calls out to Abraham 2 times and he says at vs16, "and said, By Myself I have sworn declares the Lord because you have done this thing , and have not withheld your son, you only son," Vs17, indeed, I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars in the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore."

Remember, the Lord God Almighty said the same thing to Abraham at Genesis 17:1-2 where God physically appeared to Abraham. Ask yourself this question? If the angel of the Lord is just that, an angel why does God use him to call out from heaven two times when God Himself called out from heaven at Exodus 20:22 and at Mark 1:11?

Just so you know, you have bigger problems to deal with than the angel of the Lord calling out of heaven. You stated that the angel is representing Jehovah then tell me can angels swear oaths on behalf of God Himself? "NO!" Look at the word at Hebrews 6:13-17, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF." vS14, "saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you."

Vs15, And thus, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. Vs16, "For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath is given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. Vs17, IN THE SAME WAY GOD, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of HIs purpose, interposed with an oath." In short, it was God who swore the oath, not an angel. Besides, swearing an oath is matter of ones own conscience which means you cannot swear an oath on behalf of another.

Oh yea, I almost forgot, your comments on how the NWT fixed and corrected errors. Really, show me my errors from the NWT that I have taken out of context anything I stated from Genesis 22, or even from Hebrews 6:13-17?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
james

Twist it any way you like. No man has ever seen God-John 1:18) proving John 1:1 false because men saw Jesus. a god is correct for the word( Logos)--means has godlike qualities, it is not calleing that one God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again keiw,

No flesh lives in heaven. Jesus was raised a spirit, from death as a mortal. He can still appear mortal any time he wants to. As he did with Thomas, but on the first day, no one recognized him. As well later he appeared behind a locked door. Flesh cannot do that.

I disagree with your sharp distinction between "Flesh" and "Spirit". Jesus had his body changed, transformed from mortality to immortality, not replaced. God raised him from the dead and the tomb was empty.

Philippians 3:20-21 (NWT online): 20 But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself.

Philippians 3:20–21 (KJV): 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Change, transform: Strong's 3345 μετασχηματίζω [metaschematizo /met·askh·ay·mat·id·zo/] v. From 3326 and a derivative of 4976; TDNT 7:957; TDNTA 1129; GK 3571; Five occurrences; AV translates as “transform” twice, “transfer in a figure” once, “transform (one’s) self” once, and “change” once. 1 to change the figure of, to transform.

Romans 12:1-2 (NWT online): 1 Therefore, I appeal to you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason. 2 And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Romans 12:1–2 (KJV): 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
One application of this word is the change from a grub to a butterfly.

Mark 9:1-4 (NWT online): 1 Furthermore, he said to them: “Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God already having come in power.” 2 Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and John along and led them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them; 3 his outer garments began to glisten, becoming far whiter than any clothes cleaner on earth could whiten them. 4 Also, E·liʹjah with Moses appeared to them, and they were conversing with Jesus.

Mark 9:1–4 (KJV): 1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. 2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor