The Son Distinct from The Angels

[jamesh]

Twist it any way you like. No man has ever seen God-John 1:18) proving John 1:1 false because men saw Jesus. a god is correct for the word( Logos)--means has godlike qualities, it is not calleing that one God.

Excuse me clueless one but John 6:46 says, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, EXCEPT he who is from God, HE HAS SEEN THE FATHER." So, how is it that "a god" according to you able to SEE GOD THE FATHER? How can a created being according to you and the watchtower cult who is a god able to see God?

And btw, "a god" is not God by definition because there is only one God, period. Using your flawed logic men are made in the image of God and have some of His qualities but we are not God. And as I stated in my post, angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Almighty or for anyone else for that matter.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

 

[keiw]

Greetings again keiw,

I disagree with your sharp distinction between "Flesh" and "Spirit". Jesus had his body changed, transformed from mortality to immortality, not replaced. God raised him from the dead and the tomb was empty.

Philippians 3:20-21 (NWT online): 20 But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself.

Philippians 3:20–21 (KJV): 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Change, transform: Strong's 3345 μετασχηματίζω [metaschematizo /met·askh·ay·mat·id·zo/] v. From 3326 and a derivative of 4976; TDNT 7:957; TDNTA 1129; GK 3571; Five occurrences; AV translates as “transform” twice, “transfer in a figure” once, “transform (one’s) self” once, and “change” once. 1 to change the figure of, to transform.

Romans 12:1-2 (NWT online): 1 Therefore, I appeal to you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason. 2 And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Romans 12:1–2 (KJV): 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
One application of this word is the change from a grub to a butterfly.

Mark 9:1-4 (NWT online): 1 Furthermore, he said to them: “Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God already having come in power.” 2 Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and John along and led them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them; 3 his outer garments began to glisten, becoming far whiter than any clothes cleaner on earth could whiten them. 4 Also, E·liʹjah with Moses appeared to them, and they were conversing with Jesus.

Mark 9:1–4 (KJV): 1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. 2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[keiw]

Greetings again keiw,

I disagree with your sharp distinction between "Flesh" and "Spirit". Jesus had his body changed, transformed from mortality to immortality, not replaced. God raised him from the dead and the tomb was empty.

Philippians 3:20-21 (NWT online): 20 But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself.

Philippians 3:20–21 (KJV): 20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Change, transform: Strong's 3345 μετασχηματίζω [metaschematizo /met·askh·ay·mat·id·zo/] v. From 3326 and a derivative of 4976; TDNT 7:957; TDNTA 1129; GK 3571; Five occurrences; AV translates as “transform” twice, “transfer in a figure” once, “transform (one’s) self” once, and “change” once. 1 to change the figure of, to transform.

Romans 12:1-2 (NWT online): 1 Therefore, I appeal to you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason. 2 And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Romans 12:1–2 (KJV): 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
One application of this word is the change from a grub to a butterfly.

Mark 9:1-4 (NWT online): 1 Furthermore, he said to them: “Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God already having come in power.” 2 Six days later Jesus took Peter and James and John along and led them up into a lofty mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them; 3 his outer garments began to glisten, becoming far whiter than any clothes cleaner on earth could whiten them. 4 Also, E·liʹjah with Moses appeared to them, and they were conversing with Jesus.

Mark 9:1–4 (KJV): 1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. 2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

You think you have light? Why did all standing there taste death?

 

[keiw]

Excuse me clueless one but John 6:46 says, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, EXCEPT he who is from God, HE HAS SEEN THE FATHER." So, how is it that "a god" according to you able to SEE GOD THE FATHER? How can a created being according to you and the watchtower cult who is a god able to see God?

And btw, "a god" is not God by definition because there is only one God, period. Using your flawed logic men are made in the image of God and have some of His qualities but we are not God. And as I stated in my post, angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Almighty or for anyone else for that matter.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

God gave Jesus all authority. If Jesus were God, he would already of had all authority. Thus one superior to him gave him that authority.

 

[Nathan P]

Greetings again keiw and Nathan P,

Yes, I believe that there is one God, Yahweh, (not the erroneous form of the YHWH Name "Jehovah"), God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection (of his human body).

Luke 2:10–11 (KJV): 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Kind regards
Trevor

Explain where that says he was above the angels? And I will prove it is talking about when he was on earth and was around people.

 

[Nathan P]

Of course it does not, therefore (like you just stated), "that it was never there." In logic, what your doing Nathan is making what is known as "a argument from silence." This means you cannot demonstrate what God has NOT said or done. No one can.

Only things that actually occur can be expected to leave any evidence from which we may construct a positive case. Yur problem with the fundamentals of basic rational thought continues which is proved by your answer above. In short, your wrong as usual.

IN GOD THE SON,
james

My statement stands

So what, that still doesn't make Jesus an angel. Your flat out wrong.
In Him,
james

Rev. 5 makes Jesus an angel because only he was worthy to take the scroll from the Father and open it and know what was in it. Meaning the angel who told John about the scroll in Revelations had to have been Jesus because only he was worthy to tell anyone information from the scroll.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Nathan P,

Explain where that says he was above the angels?

The title "Lord" implies a superior status. No Angel has this title. The Angels are ALL "ministering" spirits, sent forth by God:
Hebrews 1:13–14 (KJV): 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

And I will prove it is talking about when he was on earth and was around people.

The declaration by the Angels was concerning the babe Jesus when he was in a manger in Bethlehem. You seem to be trying to obscure your previous wrong question/statement. Are you now speaking about status or location? When Jesus was upon the earth he was superior to the Angels who were in heaven.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Nathan P]

Greetings again Nathan P,

The title "Lord" implies a superior status. No Angel has this title. The Angels are ALL "ministering" spirits, sent forth by God:
Hebrews 1:13–14 (KJV): 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

The declaration by the Angels was concerning the babe Jesus when he was in a manger in Bethlehem. You seem to be trying to obscure your previous wrong question/statement. Are you now speaking about status or location? When Jesus was upon the earth he was superior to the Angels who were in heaven.

Kind regards
Trevor

My statement is not wrong because only Jesus would have been worthy to tell John about the scroll and since the angel tells John about the scroll the angel had to have been Jesus. No he was not superior to the angels when he was on earth because it says he made himself lower than the angels.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Nathan P,

My statement is not wrong because only Jesus would have been worthy to tell John about the scroll and since the angel tells John about the scroll the angel had to have been Jesus.

I am not sure why you are saying this, as God gave Jesus the Apocalypse, and then Jesus gave this to his Angel to deliver the message to John in the way which is revealed to us by John. Jesus uses his Angel.
Revelation 1:1 (KJV): The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

No he was not superior to the angels when he was on earth because it says he made himself lower than the angels.

I agree that we have the statement that Jesus "was made a little lower than the Angels", but I understand this to state that he was a mortal, and hence lower in his physical being. The fact that the Angel at his birth called Jesus "Lord and Christ" is perhaps what the position that he would eventually assume. So I will allow your statement as being possibly correct, but reserve my opinion.

On another aspect you state that Jesus made himself lower than the Angels. But the Scriptures state that it was Yahweh who made Jesus lower than the Angels.
Psalm 8:5–6 (KJV): 5 For thou (Yahweh verse 1) hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Hebrews 2:5–9 (KJV): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The real emphasis that I see here is, that it was necessary that Jesus was made a mortal man so that he could suffer death and bring salvation by being the captain of salvation for the mortal faithful whom he would rescue from death by overcoming sin and all its effects.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Nathan P]

Greetings again Nathan P,

I am not sure why you are saying this, as God gave Jesus the Apocalypse, and then Jesus gave this to his Angel to deliver the message to John in the way which is revealed to us by John. Jesus uses his Angel.
Revelation 1:1 (KJV): The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

I agree that we have the statement that Jesus "was made a little lower than the Angels", but I understand this to state that he was a mortal, and hence lower in his physical being. The fact that the Angel at his birth called Jesus "Lord and Christ" is perhaps what the position that he would eventually assume. So I will allow your statement as being possibly correct, but reserve my opinion.

On another aspect you state that Jesus made himself lower than the Angels. But the Scriptures state that it was Yahweh who made Jesus lower than the Angels.
Psalm 8:5–6 (KJV): 5 For thou (Yahweh verse 1) hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Hebrews 2:5–9 (KJV): 5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The real emphasis that I see here is, that it was necessary that Jesus was made a mortal man so that he could suffer death and bring salvation by being the captain of salvation for the mortal faithful whom he would rescue from death by overcoming sin and all its effects.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus gave it to his angel after it was written up because it says the message will be sent to the churches and in the first one the angel (Jesus) was sent to John to tell him what to write. We will discuss about him being made lower when I get just what it says from the nkjv. Even if it is talking about his physical being then while he was on earth he was lower than the angels and could not have been God while he was on earth.

Also it was given to Jesus by God to tell them what would happen soon, then one angel was sent to John, then John was a witness to one about the word of God and that was Jesus. Meaning since only one was sent to John about the word of God and John was witness to only one about the word of God, then the one sent and the one who told John that information had to be one and the same being. Why? Because you can not have 2 of them telling John the same information at the same time.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Nathan P,

Even if it is talking about his physical being then while he was on earth he was lower than the angels and could not have been God while he was on earth.

I do not believe that Jesus was or is God. I believe that Jesus was and is a human, now exalted, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Also it was given to Jesus by God to tell them what would happen soon, then one angel was sent to John, then John was a witness to one about the word of God and that was Jesus. Meaning since only one was sent to John about the word of God and John was witness to only one about the word of God, then the one sent and the one who told John that information had to be one and the same being. Why? Because you can not have 2 of them telling John the same information at the same time.

You have lost me completely here. If you are using this to try to prove that Jesus is now an Angel, or Michael the Archangel, then I reject this as I believe that Jesus is a man, now exalted and transformed into an immortal substantial Spirit Being, equal in nature to the Angels, but superior to them as he is seated at the right hand of God, while all the Angels stand and minister:
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV): For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Acts 17:30–31 (KJV): 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Nathan P]

Greetings again Nathan P,

I do not believe that Jesus was or is God. I believe that Jesus was and is a human, now exalted, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

You have lost me completely here. If you are using this to try to prove that Jesus is now an Angel, or Michael the Archangel, then I reject this as I believe that Jesus is a man, now exalted and transformed into an immortal substantial Spirit Being, equal in nature to the Angels, but superior to them as he is seated at the right hand of God, while all the Angels stand and minister:
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV): For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Acts 17:30–31 (KJV): 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Kind regards
Trevor

Just answer that since only one angel was sent to John and John was a witness to only one about the word of God then the one sent and the one John was a witness to had to have been one and the same? If you believe Jesus is equal in nature to the angels then why don't you believe he is an angel?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Nathan P,

Just answer that since only one angel was sent to John and John was a witness to only one about the word of God then the one sent and the one John was a witness to had to have been one and the same?

I am confused at what you are saying, and I am not trying to avoid this, especially as you seem to use this as a strong support for your view. But if you could be a bit clearer I would appreciate this. I am going out very soon (morning here in Australia 8 am) and will not be active here for another 6 hours which is most probably inconvenient time for you. I will go back to your earlier posts and try to understand exactly what verses you are relying upon, but at this moment you seem to me to be relying on some obscure or ambiguous passage. If you clarify in the meantime I will perhaps better understand. I understand that it was Jesus that sent His Angel to John Revelation 1:1-3. He did not send himself. If there is only one Angel, then it was not Jesus.

If you believe Jesus is equal in nature to the angels then why don't you believe he is an angel?

The faithful will also be equal to the angels as a result of their resurrection to immortality. Jesus was born a human.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Nathan P]

Greetings again Nathan P,

I am confused at what you are saying, and I am not trying to avoid this, especially as you seem to use this as a strong support for your view. But if you could be a bit clearer I would appreciate this. I am going out very soon (morning here in Australia 8 am) and will not be active here for another 6 hours which is most probably inconvenient time for you. I will go back to your earlier posts and try to understand exactly what verses you are relying upon, but at this moment you seem to me to be relying on some obscure or ambiguous passage. If you clarify in the meantime I will perhaps better understand. I understand that it was Jesus that sent His Angel to John Revelation 1:1-3. He did not send himself. If there is only one Angel, then it was not Jesus.

The faithful will also be equal to the angels as a result of their resurrection to immortality. Jesus was born a human.

Kind regards
Trevor

Jesus did not send his angel at Revelation 1:1-3 and I have proven that. Forget your misconception that Jesus sent his angel there and just answer that since Jesus was to tell them what would happen soon, then one angel was sent to John, then John was a witness to one about the word of God and that was Jesus then the one sent and the one who John was a witness to had to have been one and the same correct?

Otherwise if you think the angel sent and Jesus were separate then explain why two were sent to tell John what would happen soon? Also if you think Jesus sent the angel there then explain why when Jesus sent the angel that instead of the angel, John was a witness to Jesus instead of the angel that Jesus was supposed to have sent?

And explain how Jesus is supposed to be in heaven and had sent his angel to John and instead Jesus himself is now on earth and tells John about the word of God instead of the angel Jesus was supposed to send to John to tell him what Jesus wanted him to know? The point is Jesus could not be in heaven and be sending an angel and at the same time he is on earth when the angel was sent, so Jesus would not have to tell John that information if Jesus sent the angel?

 

[Nathan P]

Greetings again Nathan P,

I am confused at what you are saying, and I am not trying to avoid this, especially as you seem to use this as a strong support for your view. But if you could be a bit clearer I would appreciate this. I am going out very soon (morning here in Australia 8 am) and will not be active here for another 6 hours which is most probably inconvenient time for you. I will go back to your earlier posts and try to understand exactly what verses you are relying upon, but at this moment you seem to me to be relying on some obscure or ambiguous passage. If you clarify in the meantime I will perhaps better understand. I understand that it was Jesus that sent His Angel to John Revelation 1:1-3. He did not send himself. If there is only one Angel, then it was not Jesus.

The faithful will also be equal to the angels as a result of their resurrection to immortality. Jesus was born a human.

Kind regards
Trevor

Exactly he did not send himself but yet he is on earth and John is a witness to him meaning someone other than him had to have sent him.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Nathan P,

Jesus did not send his angel at Revelation 1:1-3 and I have proven that.

I have reviewed all of your posts and I do not accept what you have stated. Jesus sent his Angel.
Revelation 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
The "he" that I highlighted is God, not Jesus. Jesus sent His Angel. The vision in the rest of the chapter is centred in Jesus, and it is in extremely figurative language. The Angel is empowered to reveal this message, a messenger delegated by Jesus. It is not literally Jesus, or the Son of Man, but a figurative depiction. Jesus is not literally attired as depicted in Revelation 1. There are other similar figurative visions in the OT, but these were prophetic of future things.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Nathan P]

Greetings again Nathan P,

I have reviewed all of your posts and I do not accept what you have stated. Jesus sent his Angel.
Revelation 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
The "he" that I highlighted is God, not Jesus. Jesus sent His Angel. The vision in the rest of the chapter is centred in Jesus, and it is in extremely figurative language. The Angel is empowered to reveal this message, a messenger delegated by Jesus. It is not literally Jesus, or the Son of Man, but a figurative depiction. Jesus is not literally attired as depicted in Revelation 1. There are other similar figurative visions in the OT, but these were prophetic of future things.

Kind regards
Trevor

No Jesus did not send his angel there and instead sent his angel clearly at vs 16 to the churches with the completed information. Since you say the he is God and not Jesus it is the he (see above) who sent the angel and not Jesus by your own account. And how could Jesus have sent the angel from heaven and then John is a witness to Jesus on earth when Jesus is supposed to be in heaven and sent the angel to tell John that information? Are you saying that when John was a witness to Jesus that it was not literally Jesus?

 

[Nathan P]

Greetings again Nathan P,

I do not believe that Jesus was or is God. I believe that Jesus was and is a human, now exalted, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

You have lost me completely here. If you are using this to try to prove that Jesus is now an Angel, or Michael the Archangel, then I reject this as I believe that Jesus is a man, now exalted and transformed into an immortal substantial Spirit Being, equal in nature to the Angels, but superior to them as he is seated at the right hand of God, while all the Angels stand and minister:
1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV): For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Acts 17:30–31 (KJV): 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Kind regards
Trevor

How could I have lost you here when only one was sent and since John was a witness to only one then the one sent and the one John was a witness to had to have been one and the same? And at John1 where John is a witness to the light is that saying the same thing as Revelation 1 about who John was a witness to?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Later on the Jw's said this is not true

Which, of course raises the question of WHY ANYONE would pay any attention at all to what A "Jehova's Witness" says about anything.

 

[Nathan P]

Which, of course raises the question of WHY ANYONE would pay any attention at all to what A "Jehova's Witness" says about anything.

Because the truth is being revealed to you.