Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Consequently the LAST THING I'll ever need is a "Jehova's Witness opinion".
The Son Distinct from The Angels
- Thread starter James Jones
- Start date
Greetings again Nathan P,
Revelation 1:10–18 (KJV): 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Are you asking me to accept that this is literal. That Jesus came from heaven and then appeared to John literally as above.
We have other similar visions, which to some extent seem real, but they are symbolic even if there is some interaction between the participants.
Isaiah 6:1–8 (KJV): 1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. 6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isaiah in vision saw inside the Temple in Jerusalem and the static Mercy Seat and Cherubim are transformed into the Throne of Jesus representing Yahweh, and surrounded by "living" Seraphim, then Isaih interacts with these Seraphim and answers the call of Jesus to be sent to preach to the nation of Israel, who would become deaf, blind and hardened heart Israel, thus prefiguring Jesus' own ministry.
Kind regards
Trevor
I messed that up, and contradicted myself, didn't I?
I should have said: "The "he" that I highlighted is Jesus, not God. Jesus sent his Angel."
That touches on an interesting aspect of how God has been revealed through various Angels, and in this case Jesus is revealed through His Angel. Yes, I do not believe that Jesus was upon the earth, but the Angel communicated the Book of Revelation. W have the Angel of Yahweh appearing to Abraham on a number of occasions and speaking as if he is God. And we have the Angel in the Bush appearing to Moses and saying that he is the God of Abraham. Consider the vision that is revealed in Revelation 1:
Revelation 1:10–18 (KJV): 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Are you asking me to accept that this is literal. That Jesus came from heaven and then appeared to John literally as above.
We have other similar visions, which to some extent seem real, but they are symbolic even if there is some interaction between the participants.
Isaiah 6:1–8 (KJV): 1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. 6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isaiah in vision saw inside the Temple in Jerusalem and the static Mercy Seat and Cherubim are transformed into the Throne of Jesus representing Yahweh, and surrounded by "living" Seraphim, then Isaih interacts with these Seraphim and answers the call of Jesus to be sent to preach to the nation of Israel, who would become deaf, blind and hardened heart Israel, thus prefiguring Jesus' own ministry.
I have a thread "JW Book: What Can the Bible Teach Us?" which covers some of the JW teachings and practices that do not agree with the Bible teaching.
Kind regards
Trevor
You have to prove the he is Jesus and not just say so? Do you believe Jesus sent the angel there because it clearly says Jesus sent his angel at vs 16?
Greetings again Nathan P,
Revelation 1:16 (KJV): And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
What I am claiming is that John saw a vision of someone like The Son of Man, and speaking as if this Son of Man is Jesus. But the vision is not literal, and I compare this vision to many similar visions in the OT. Perhaps this vision has to some extent progressed from those of the OT, but the same principle applies. How do you understand the visions of Isaiah 6 and Ezekiel 1. I consider that these have significant relevance to the specific time when Isaiah and Ezekiel saw these visions, but they were not real, not literal and some aspects of these visions are prophetic. I consider the visions of the Book of Revelation is similar.
Kind regards
Trevor
Not sure what you are suggesting regarding vs 16.
Revelation 1:16 (KJV): And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
What I am claiming is that John saw a vision of someone like The Son of Man, and speaking as if this Son of Man is Jesus. But the vision is not literal, and I compare this vision to many similar visions in the OT. Perhaps this vision has to some extent progressed from those of the OT, but the same principle applies. How do you understand the visions of Isaiah 6 and Ezekiel 1. I consider that these have significant relevance to the specific time when Isaiah and Ezekiel saw these visions, but they were not real, not literal and some aspects of these visions are prophetic. I consider the visions of the Book of Revelation is similar.
Kind regards
Trevor
That is rev. 22:16 where Jesus sends his angel. Is that why you think Jesus sent the angel at the first part of Revelations?
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
It seems this just might be the angel is question:
He sent and communicated it by His angel to His servant John... I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet... 12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore....
And...
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet 1:10
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” 4:1-2
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 But he *said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” ... I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things....
And....
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy. 12 Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
We can actually pay attention to what John is telling us.
OR, we can do as most people do and put the facts on ignore because those facts do not suit our creedal idol. That's what most people do.
And that's why they are on the broad road.
Do you think because he sent his angel at vs 16 that means he Jesus sent the angel at the first part of Revelations?
No clear distinction is made like you are trying to make it say. If someone were to say to which of the children did he say I love you? Does that mean only one of the children are human?
Those who understand English can clearly see-in verse 4--If Jesus wasn't given the name above the angels names he would be equal to them. Its kind of hard to find Gods truth using altered versions of the bible by satans will. Why do the trinity religions use the altered versions? Because truth exposes them as false religions by putting Gods name back in the over 7000 spots he inspired it to be because God wants his name in those spots. Satan doesnt. So all creation can see whose will is being supported by using the altered translations.
And those that read the context can clearly see at Hebrews 1"6 that the Father clearly stated the following? "And let all the angels of God WORSHIP HIM." Tell me "keiw," did Satan alter this verse to? And at vs8, did Satan alter the Father's words here to when He said, "Thy throne, O God forever and ever."
IN GOD THE SON, (I know, it's your turn to say the Bible does not say, "God the Son."
james
That Greek word-Proskenaue has 5 different meanings from Greek to English-1) worship toGod-2) Obeisance to a king-3) honor toa judge and 2 others. The Israelites knew 100% Jesus has a God like all created beings-Psalm 45:7-John 20:17, Rev 3:12--2Cor 1:3, Coll 1:3, Eph 1:3--1Pet 1:3--Thus would NEVER give worship to one who has a God. Reality-They bowed in Obeisance to Gods appointed king. Trinity translation( Greek Lexicons by Catholicism) misused that Greek word to fit the false council teaching of God being a trinity. Its 100% fact-the Abrahamic God served by Israel is a single being God-YHWH(Jehovah). I hope this clears it up for you.And those that read the context can clearly see at Hebrews 1"6 that the Father clearly stated the following? "And let all the angels of God WORSHIP HIM." Tell me "keiw," did Satan alter this verse to? And at vs8, did Satan alter the Father's words here to when He said, "Thy throne, O God forever and ever."
IN GOD THE SON, (I know, it's your turn to say the Bible does not say, "God the Son."
james
Well maybe you can explain the 5 different meanings used at John 5:23 (proskuneo) which is to worship God and the same word is used at Luke 4:8 where Jesus says, "It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only."
Now, why is that same word used at Hebrews 1:6? Tell us all here how you know the meaning is different from John 5:23 and Luke 4:8?
IN GOD THE SON,
james
Because Jesus has a God--God does not have a God, only God gets worship--a king gets Obeisance.
But you do understand until he was given a name above the angels he was equal to them?And those that read the context can clearly see at Hebrews 1"6 that the Father clearly stated the following? "And let all the angels of God WORSHIP HIM." Tell me "keiw," did Satan alter this verse to? And at vs8, did Satan alter the Father's words here to when He said, "Thy throne, O God forever and ever."
IN GOD THE SON, (I know, it's your turn to say the Bible does not say, "God the Son."
james
Jesus is Gods appointed king, thus he gets obeisance, not worship. God was already king (1Chron 16:31) If Jesus were God he would already have been king and wouldn't need to be appointed. If Jesus were God he already would have all authority in heaven and earth, but he didn't. God gave him the authority Matt 28:18)-- Obeisance is correct, not worship--Jesus wont even accept glory from men, do you think he would accept worship-John 5:41