SovereignGrace
Well-known member
He’s too busy typing a response to the post of yours he never read to know what you typed out in your post.
-power!!!
The Source/ Origin of Salvific Faith
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
-power!!!
preacher4truth
Well-known member
....
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this. According to @civic this is all my fault.He’s too busy typing a response to the post of yours he never read to know what you typed out in your post.
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SovereignGrace
Well-known member
Your fault? Huh? What? How?!?!?
civic
Well-known member
That’s not what I said nor implied and if you took it that way I apologize.
preacher4truth
Well-known member
Brother, I'm not dense. You implied it, so why not own it? I'm a big boy, been through a lot in life, and am straight forward. Yes, I'm calling you on it, own it.
Sorry but you do not know what you are talking about
like precious faith (faith,—i. e. substance of truth believed: faith objective, not subjective, Alford
Do you not know what substance means ?
Do you not understand the difference between objective and subjective
In context Peter is comparing the faith of us (Jews or Apostles) with another Group (gentiles according to Barnes below)
In an article at S.E.A.
Rene Lopez writes
Second Peter 1:1. ―Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.‖ Several commentators believe that this verse refers to faith as a gift of God,42 whereas others point out that this faith refers to the body of truth committed to believers.43
examine note 43
43 Gordon H. Clark, I & II Peter: Two Books in One (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1980), 2:4; E. M. Sidebottom, James, Jude, 2 Peter, New Century Bible Commentary (London: Marshall, Morgan & Scott, 1967; reprint, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1982), 104; J. N. D. Kelly, The Epistles of Peter and of Jude, Black's New Testament Commentary (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1969), 296; and Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers (New York: Lee, Shepard, and Dillingham, 1872), 2:831.
Also the Calvinist commentary
like precious — “equally precious” to all: to those who believe, though not having seen Christ, as well as to Peter and those who have seen Him. For it lays hold of the same “exceeding great and precious promises,” and the same “righteousness of God our Saviour.” “The common salvation . . . the faith once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 1:3). with us — apostles and eye-witnesses (2 Peter 1:18). JFB
and Barnes notes as well
To them that have obtained like precious faith with us. With us who are of Jewish origin. This epistle was evidently written to the same persons as the former, (Intro., & 3,) and that was intended to embrace many who were of Gentile origin. See Note on 1 Pet. 1:1.
The apostle addresses them all now, whatever was their origin, as heirs of the common faith, and as in all respects brethren.
In other words gentiles as well as Jews were meant to share in the common faith
that is the allotment
Just a thought for you. I don't think faith comes from God or man. It is the direct result of God acting on a man. A reaction. If you can see that. (I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't even be phased if you found the most beautiful woman in the world, and they turned around and it was just a beautiful man...okay, I'm pretty sure you would have a reaction, and your whole mindset on the situation would be instantly and irrevocably changed...)
It will have to be shown faith is something God irresistibly infuses into some and withholds from others
as Everyone but Pelagians hold God grants faith. He does so thought his word, divine revelation and conviction of the spirit
That he irresistible infuses it is written nowhere in the bible as far as I can see
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It appears you are speaking of regeneration
however regeneration is preceded by faith
John 1:12–13 —ESV
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
those who receive Christ that is believe on his name have been given the right to be children (born ones) of God
that is regeneration
and that is preceded by receiving Christ- believing in his name
Regeneration can't be preceded by faith, because without understanding, one cannot have faith. The regeneration of the spirit brings understanding, understanding brings faith, faith brings belief, and ultimately salvation. The fact that this isn't something that the human mind is capable of truly comprehending, apart from God's imparting His truth to you through His Spirit, is telling. It tells that you are still an immature believer, who has a bit of growing up to do. Nothing God does is as simple as going from point a to b to c to d. It is never that simple, but you are forcing God to be that simple. God speaks to you through the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2) and brings you to salvation. Yet you can't hear God without your spirit being alive. God does not see us as we see us. He can put up with the idea that we are sinners in a human way, but, He already knows we won't always be that, because He has determined to save those He chose in love, according to the good pleasure of His will. It is irresistible. God made you, as the potter, the way He wanted to, and you have NO say in it.
That is the rebirth, where the old is gone and the new is come. Paul was very much alive before he went to Ananias and was saved. God still wanted salvation to be through the foolishness of preaching, even in Paul's case. Paul's spirit was very much alive from the dead, after Jesus was done with him. Paul had now seen that the god he invented in his mind, was not the true God. I'm pretty sure he didn't react at all, and was pretty much like "meh...let's get this over with." No. He was rocked to the very core by finally understanding what he could not understand in the natural man.
You ignored what the verse shows
John 1:12–13 —ESV
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
those who receive Christ that is believe on his name have been given the right to be children (born ones) of God
that is regeneration
and that is preceded by receiving Christ- believing in his name
to tout your theology
BTW you interpret 1Co 2:14 contrary to many verses of scripture
I did not ignore it, you just don't understand the context. Now that I know you are a Molinist, I am no longer surprised why not.
You are mistaken on two fronts
1 I deny being a Molinist and h9ld it to be speculation
2 You are ignoring
John 1:12 —ESV
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,”
which clearly shows receiving Christ that is believing on his name precedes receiving the right to become children of God
It is regeneration which makes one a child of God
brightfame52
Well-known member
Sure whatever ability men have comes from God. But there is a difference in God giving natural ability and spiritual ability. Spiritual ability like the Faith of Gods elect comes from having been born spiritually of the Spirit of God. God doesnt give all men spiritual ability, wherein for the most part He gives all men physically ability
Sorry faith precedes regeneration
John 1:12–13 —ESV
“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
1 Pet. 1:18–23 —KJV
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.”
Theo1689
Well-known member
Sorry, you are wrong:
1John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God,
Nope all that states isd the one biorn again is still believing
You have to ignore a lot of scripture to hold your view
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Repentance unto…”
“…life”
The Gentiles were not granted life unto repentance, but just the opposite according to the text. And the gospel is the means God grants mankind the ability to believe. He sent the gospel first to the Jews and then the Gentiles which enabled their faith response (Rom. 1:16, 10:14-17).
John 5:40
“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Come to me…” (through faith)
“…to have life.”
John 6:53
“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Unless you eat…drink” (by faith)
“…you have not life in you.”
John 6:57
“so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“the one who feeds on me…” (by faith)
“…will live”
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“these are written…” (scriptures)
“…that you may believe…”
“…by believing you may have life…”
Life clearly is a fruit of faith and repentance, not the other way around.
Acts 15:9
“He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“He purified their hearts…”
“…by faith.”
It does not say He purified their hearts by regeneration so as to make them have faith. Clearly a purified heart is a fruit of faith, not the other way around.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…all who did receive him…who believed…”
“…he gave the right to BECOME children of God…”
John 12:36
“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“Believe in the light…”
“…so that you may become children…”
1 Timothy 1:16
“But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…those who would believe in him…”
“…may receive eternal life.”
Colossians 2:12
“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…baptism, in which you were also raised…”
“…through your faith…”
James 1:18
“He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.”
The order clearly laid out is as follows:
“…give us brith…”
“…through the word of truth…”
1 Cor. 4:15 —KJV
“For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”
While it is not necessary to do so
Consider this article from Dr. David Allen of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in 1 John 5:1:
1 John 5:1
First John 5:1 states: “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God . . .”29 “Whoever believes” is a present tense participle. “Born” is a perfect tense verb. Some Calvinists suggest the perfect tense indicates completed past action with continuing results and draw the conclusion that faith is the result of being born again. The argument is that the verb “born” is in the perfect tense denoting an action that precedes the faith in the participle “whoever believes.”
This is an unwarranted and erroneous interpretation. Consider two examples. John 3:18 states: “He who believes is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already. . .” “He who believes” is a present participle. “Not condemned” is a perfect tense verb. Yet, here it is clear that the “believing” precedes “not being condemned.” Consider 1 John 5:10, “he who does not believe God has made Him a liar. . .” “He who does not believe” translates a present participle. “Has made” translates a perfect tense verb. Here again, the perfect tense verb, “making God a liar,” is a result of the present participle, “not believing,” not its cause.
Many Calvinists argue that the use of “born” in the perfect tense produces a range of results expressed by present participles, and faith is one of them. However, exegesis always trumps systematic theology. Likewise, context and sentence structure trumps theology. Let’s compare John 3:18 with 1 John 5:1 to see if the use of “born” in the perfect tense produces the result of faith. Notice the order of events in John 3:18 is A then B. In 1 John 5:1 the order is B then A. Both make use of the perfect tense. The same grammatical structure that places being born of God before faith can also be used to describe justification as occurring after faith. See Rom 5:1. The grammar of the verses does not address an ordo salutis. The use of the perfect tense in Greek provides no support for the notion of regeneration preceding faith.30 To suggest otherwise is to fail to distinguish between tense and aspect in Greek verbs and verbals.
as
Furthermore, with respect to 1 John 5:1, contextually the simple initial act of believing is not under consideration by John. John is talking about the ongoing life of faith as a believer. Obviously, the new birth precedes the ongoing life of faith. But that is something altogether different from saying the new birth precedes the initial act of faith. John’s use of “born” nowhere precludes the possibility of faith preceding regeneration. One may argue for regeneration preceding faith, but one cannot argue against faith preceding regeneration. The most that can be said from the Greek present participle and perfect tense verb combination is that the actions are contemporaneous.
The broader context of John’s writings indicate he would not teach that regeneration precedes faith and elsewhere teach that faith is a condition for life as he does in John 20:31. This precludes the possibility of regeneration preceding faith.
Consider what Calvin says on Ephesians 1:4-5, and not just because of what he had to say of people who believe as you do: (citation: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/calvin/ephesians/1.htm parts of verses 4 and 5)
"
4. According as he hath chosen us. The foundation and first cause, both of our calling and of all the benefits which we receive from God, is here declared to be his eternal election. If the reason is asked, why God has called us to enjoy the gospel, why he daily bestows upon us so many blessings, why he opens to us the gate of heaven, -- the answer will be constantly found in this principle, that he hath chosen us before the foundation of the world. The very time when the election took place proves it to be free; for what could we have deserved, or what merit did we possess, before the world was made? How childish is the attempt to meet this argument by the following sophism! "We were chosen because we were worthy, and because God foresaw that we would be worthy." We were all lost in Adam; and therefore, had not God, through his own election, rescued us from perishing, there was nothing to be foreseen. The same argument is used in the Epistle to the Romans, where, speaking of Jacob and Esau, he says,
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth." (Romans 9:11.)
But though they had not yet acted, might a sophist of the Sorbonne reply, God foresaw that they would act. This objection has no force when applied to the depraved natures of men, in whom nothing can be seen but materials for destruction"
Calvin gives a clear explanation of what I was saying when your belief would cause the whole of creation to implode. For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, to the point that if God had not chosen to save anyone, there would be nothing to foresee, for everyone would be off sinning in their own little world. Without God's intervention, no one would/could ever be worthy. No one would/could come to God. They are all to busy "going their own way." (Part of the prophesy of none being righteous, and none seeking after God. Basically the reason why none are righteous and none seek after God. They are too busy doing their own thing, which, if you truly believe in a sin nature, is following their sin nature.)
"5. Who hath predestinated us. What follows is intended still further to heighten the commendation of divine grace. The reason why Paul inculcated so earnestly on the Ephesians the doctrines of free adoption through Christ, and of the eternal election which preceded it, has been already considered. But as the mercy of God is nowhere acknowledged in more elevated language, this passage will deserve our careful attention. Three causes of our salvation are here mentioned, and a fourth is shortly afterwards added. The efficient cause is the good pleasure of the will of God, the material cause is, Jesus Christ, and the final cause is, the praise of the glory of his grace. Let us now see what he says respecting each.
To the first belongs the whole of the following statement God hath predestinated us in himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, unto the adoption of sons, and hath made us accepted by his grace. In the word predestinate we must again attend to the order. We were not then in existence, and therefore there was no merit of ours. The cause of our salvation did not proceed from us, but from God alone. Yet Paul, not satisfied with these statements, adds in himself. The Greek phrase is, eis hauton, and has the same meaning with en hauto. By this he means that God did not seek a cause out of himself, but predestinated us, because such was his will.
But this is made still more clear by what follows, according to the good pleasure of his will. The word will was enough, for Paul very frequently contrasts it with all outward causes by which men are apt to imagine that the mind of God is influenced. But that no doubt may remain, he employs the word good pleasure, which expressly sets aside all merit. In adopting us, therefore, God does not inquire what we are, and is not reconciled to us by any personal worth. His single motive is the eternal good pleasure, by which he predestinated us. [109] Why, then, are the sophists not ashamed to mingle with them other considerations, when Paul so strongly forbids us to look at anything else than the good pleasure of God?
Lest anything should still be wanting, he adds, echaritosen en chariti [110] This intimates, that, in the freest manner, and on no mercenary grounds, does God bestow upon us his love and favor, just as, when we were not yet born, and when he was prompted by nothing but his own will, he fixed upon us his choice. [111]"
God chose us, before the foundation of the world, to intervene in our lives, to turn us from our own destruction towards Himself. Yet, this is all a spiritual dimension, but our spirit is dead. Regeneration is the spirit being made alive. Born again, that's salvation.
Sorry God chose those in Christ not arbitrarily selected men
and he did not chose them to be in Christ but he chose those in Christ to be holy and blameless
Men are in Christ when they believe not arbitrarily selected
Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”
and Romans 9:11 refers to the posterity of Jacob and Esau - Israel and Edom
We know all Israel was not saved so this was clearly not an election to salvation
Mal. 1:1–4 —ESV
“The oracle of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.¶ “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’””
If you actually went to the cited work, and continue reading what was said about verse 4, you will see why you are wrong. It is clearly defined by Calvin why it is a big deal that Paul said "in Christ". In fact, let me put it here:
continuation of verse 4 explanation:
"In Christ. This is the second proof that the election is free; for if we are chosen in Christ, it is not of ourselves. It is not from a perception of anything that we deserve, but because our heavenly Father has introduced us, through the privilege of adoption, into the body of Christ. In short, the name of Christ excludes all merit, and everything which men have of their own; for when he says that we are chosen in Christ, it follows that in ourselves we are unworthy.
That we should be holy. This is the immediate, but not the chief design; for there is no absurdity in supposing that the same thing may gain two objects. The design of building is, that there should be a house. This is the immediate design, but the convenience of dwelling in it is the ultimate design. It was necessary to mention this in passing; for we shall immediately find that Paul mentions another design, the glory of God. But there is no contradiction here; for the glory of God is the highest end, to which our sanctification is subordinate."
So yes, men are chosen in Christ without condition/merit. If there was a condition, then that means we can be worthy...except we can't.
further down in explanation of verse 4:
"We learn also from these words, that election gives no occasion to licentiousness, or to the blasphemy of wicked men who say, "Let us live in any manner we please; for, if we have been elected, we cannot perish." Paul tells them plainly, that they have no right to separate holiness of life from the grace of election; for
"whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified." (Romans 8:30.)
The inference, too, which the Catharists, Celestines, and Donatists drew from these words, that we may attain perfection in this life, is without foundation. This is the goal to which the whole course of our life must be directed, and we shall not reach it till we have finished our course. Where are the men who dread and avoid the doctrine of predestination as an inextricable labyrinth, who believe it to be useless and almost dangerous? No doctrine is more useful, provided it be handled in the proper and cautious manner, of which Paul gives us an example, when he presents it as an illustration of the infinite goodness of God, and employs it as an excitement to gratitude. This is the true fountain from which we must draw our knowledge of the divine mercy. If men should evade every other argument, election shuts their mouth, so that they dare not and cannot claim anything for themselves. But let us remember the purpose for which Paul reasons about predestination, lest, by reasoning with any other view, we fall into dangerous errors."
(The dangerous errors include the idea that we have any merit before God to attain our salvation.)