The Source/ Origin of Salvific Faith

TomFL

Well-known member
If you actually went to the cited work, and continue reading what was said about verse 4, you will see why you are wrong. It is clearly defined by Calvin why it is a big deal that Paul said "in Christ". In fact, let me put it here:

continuation of verse 4 explanation:
"In Christ. This is the second proof that the election is free; for if we are chosen in Christ, it is not of ourselves. It is not from a perception of anything that we deserve, but because our heavenly Father has introduced us, through the privilege of adoption, into the body of Christ. In short, the name of Christ excludes all merit, and everything which men have of their own; for when he says that we are chosen in Christ, it follows that in ourselves we are unworthy.

That we should be holy. This is the immediate, but not the chief design; for there is no absurdity in supposing that the same thing may gain two objects. The design of building is, that there should be a house. This is the immediate design, but the convenience of dwelling in it is the ultimate design. It was necessary to mention this in passing; for we shall immediately find that Paul mentions another design, the glory of God. But there is no contradiction here; for the glory of God is the highest end, to which our sanctification is subordinate."

So yes, men are chosen in Christ without condition/merit. If there was a condition, then that means we can be worthy...except we can't.

further down in explanation of verse 4:
"We learn also from these words, that election gives no occasion to licentiousness, or to the blasphemy of wicked men who say, "Let us live in any manner we please; for, if we have been elected, we cannot perish." Paul tells them plainly, that they have no right to separate holiness of life from the grace of election; for

"whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified." (Romans 8:30.)

The inference, too, which the Catharists, Celestines, and Donatists drew from these words, that we may attain perfection in this life, is without foundation. This is the goal to which the whole course of our life must be directed, and we shall not reach it till we have finished our course. Where are the men who dread and avoid the doctrine of predestination as an inextricable labyrinth, who believe it to be useless and almost dangerous? No doctrine is more useful, provided it be handled in the proper and cautious manner, of which Paul gives us an example, when he presents it as an illustration of the infinite goodness of God, and employs it as an excitement to gratitude. This is the true fountain from which we must draw our knowledge of the divine mercy. If men should evade every other argument, election shuts their mouth, so that they dare not and cannot claim anything for themselves. But let us remember the purpose for which Paul reasons about predestination, lest, by reasoning with any other view, we fall into dangerous errors."

(The dangerous errors include the idea that we have any merit before God to attain our salvation.)
Sorry but both you and Calvin are wrong

Scripture tells us how the Ephesians were placed in Christ

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”

Men are in Christ when they hear and believe

Forget Calvin and listen to the bible
 

Joe

Active member
Regarding salvific faith God gives the ability to believe, the opportunity to believe and influence to believe but God does not believe for man

We should all be in agreement I would think.


or effectually (irresistibly) infuse faith.

This is where there is disagreement. Do you think Saul of Tarsus was ineffectually given faith or effectually given faith whereby his unbelief was purposely and fully squashed by the will of the Lord?


Man must do the believing but he may resist, refuse or suppress the truth

Saul of Tarsus was resisting, refusing, and suppressing the truth and had no intent on stopping in his unbelief. And even though the Lord had been convicting him, Saul would not relent in his unbelief until his encounter with the Way the Truth and the Life. Jesus commented to him, It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’...meaning it is hard for you to resist/fight against my will.

Men may do exactly what you said, but at the end of the day our God said, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” And, "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”(Rom 9:18-20)

You believe brother because God made a believer out of you. He did so because He foreknew you. Not because He seen into the future that you would believe, but because He knew He was going to have mercy and compassion on you to make a believer out of you. By make I mean He would do what was necessary for you to believe just like with Saul of Tarsus. Each person is different in what it takes, but whatever that is, our Father gets the job done. We are dragged to faith in Jesus, and for this we should all be humble and thankful.

God bless
 

TomFL

Well-known member
We should all be in agreement I would think.




This is where there is disagreement. Do you think Saul of Tarsus was ineffectually given faith or effectually given faith whereby his unbelief was purposely and fully squashed by the will of the Lord?

I believe Paul was convinced by what had transpired and was then given revelation

The ideas faith is irresistibly infused makes no sense when we examine passages such as

John 12:40 —ESV
“¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””

why would God blind those unable to see or hear the truth

why would the god of this world need to do so

2 Cor. 4:4 —ESV
“In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

How could they see and hear if they had not hardened themselves

Acts 28:27 —ESV
“For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’”

Why would Christ hide truth in parables

Mark 4:11–12 —ESV
“And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,
so that “‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’””

or just hide truth

Matt. 11:25 —ESV
“¶ At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;”

give a spirit of stupor

Rom. 11:8 —ESV
“as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.””

Why the warnings against hardening your heart

Heb. 3:7–8 —ESV
“¶ Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, “Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness,”

There is not a verse in the bible which states God unilaterally irresistibly installs faith in man
 

armylngst

Active member
Sorry but both you and Calvin are wrong

Scripture tells us how the Ephesians were placed in Christ

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”

Men are in Christ when they hear and believe

Forget Calvin and listen to the bible
Why are you so myopic. The reason things even got to this point is because of Ephesians 1:4-5. Why do you deny prophecy. There are none righteous, no not one. There are none that do good. There are none that seek after God. Did God lie? Are there some who actually do seek after God? I mean, really? The prophecy is clear that the reason is because they have ALL gone their OWN WAY. Their own way is following their sin nature, which you claim to believe exists. So, in this way, they are completely and absolutely incapable of seeking after God. This is why Jesus answered "with man this is impossible" when the disciples asked Him "Then who can be saved." Is this in contradiction of the verse above? May it never be. It adds another dimension to the verse above. The dimension you seem to deny exists...the God dimension. It is because God chose us in Him, that we are in Him for Ephesians 1:13 where it starts with "In Him". In him what? In him you were able to be hear the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and you were able to believe in him. The result of that is that they were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Why are you so myopic. The reason things even got to this point is because of Ephesians 1:4-5. Why do you deny prophecy. There are none righteous, no not one. There are none that do good. There are none that seek after God. Did God lie? Are there some who actually do seek after God? I mean, really? The prophecy is clear that the reason is because they have ALL gone their OWN WAY. Their own way is following their sin nature, which you claim to believe exists. So, in this way, they are completely and absolutely incapable of seeking after God. This is why Jesus answered "with man this is impossible" when the disciples asked Him "Then who can be saved." Is this in contradiction of the verse above? May it never be. It adds another dimension to the verse above. The dimension you seem to deny exists...the God dimension. It is because God chose us in Him, that we are in Him for Ephesians 1:13 where it starts with "In Him". In him what? In him you were able to be hear the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and you were able to believe in him. The result of that is that they were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.
Why are trying to change the subject ?

The issue concerned how one gets in Christ

verse 13 told us

Eph. 1:13 —ESV
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,”

that is scripture

One is placed in Christ when they believe

that settles it one is not arbitrarily placed in Christ

So there are none righteous according to law

but lets examine scripture

All these were declared Righteous

Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6

Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50

Enoch Hebrews 11:5

there is a thing called

the righteousness through faith

Rom. 1:17; 3:22 —ESV
“For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:”





y
 

Joe

Active member
I believe Paul was convinced by what had transpired and was then given revelation
It is clear Saul’s unbelief was squashed by the revelation that he experienced. And that is the point that has been made; that God is the One who makes believers out of us not we ourselves. Saul was resisting Jesus’ will to believe in Him, so Jesus made it personally obvious to Saul He was who He was. Saul then became a believer and naturally yielded his will to the Lord. Jesus effectively convinced Saul that He was really the Lord.

The ideas faith is irresistibly infused makes no sense when we examine passages such as
Your term irresistibly infused is not accurate of God’s ability to exercise His will to show mercy and compassion to those whom he desires. Our God makes us believers, not by some mystical infusion of compliance, but by His Spirit through the Gospel of Jesus He convinces us.


There is not a verse in the bible which states God unilaterally irresistibly installs faith in man
Where did you come up with irresistibly installs faith? I’ve never heard or read anyone use irresistibly installs faith or irresistibly infuses. If someone did, I would disagree as I do with you, for it misrepresents our Lord’s freedom to do as He wills.

Again, God said, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Rom 9:15-24)

I’m trying to understand what you don’t accept about God choosing to exercise His own will.

I really hate to even ask but know of no other way to get things in the light…Did you deserve God to convince you of the Gospel of Jesus so you would believe? Or did you believe on your own? Could God have shown you less mercy and compassion to the extent you would not be convinced thus not believe? And if He did would you have known or even cared?

God bless
 

TomFL

Well-known member
It is clear Saul’s unbelief was squashed by the revelation that he experienced. And that is the point that has been made; that God is the One who makes believers out of us not we ourselves. Saul was resisting Jesus’ will to believe in Him, so Jesus made it personally obvious to Saul He was who He was. Saul then became a believer and naturally yielded his will to the Lord. Jesus effectively convinced Saul that He was really the Lord.


Your term irresistibly infused is not accurate of God’s ability to exercise His will to show mercy and compassion to those whom he desires. Our God makes us believers, not by some mystical infusion of compliance, but by His Spirit through the Gospel of Jesus He convinces us.



Where did you come up with irresistibly installs faith? I’ve never heard or read anyone use irresistibly installs faith or irresistibly infuses. If someone did, I would disagree as I do with you, for it misrepresents our Lord’s freedom to do as He wills.

Again, God said, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Rom 9:15-24)

I’m trying to understand what you don’t accept about God choosing to exercise His own will.

I really hate to even ask but know of no other way to get things in the light…Did you deserve God to convince you of the Gospel of Jesus so you would believe? Or did you believe on your own? Could God have shown you less mercy and compassion to the extent you would not be convinced thus not believe? And if He did would you have known or even cared?

God bless

Have you never heard of irresistible grace ?

Its not my doctrine but Calvinist doctrine

In any case if you are going to quote scripture you need to quote it in context

Ro 9:11 is not a decree of unconditional election to salvation or reprobation but a choice of a nation which

God would work through. Also Ro 9:19-22 Concerns Israel. Paul's interlocutor is a hardened Jew. Because of unbelief

he is being cutoff and used for God's purpose to effect the crucifixion. He objects if he is fulfilling God's will why does God still judge.

The potter clay analogy speaks of God 's right to use unfaithful Israel in the manner he sees fit

and has nothing at all to do with God arbitrarily choosing some for mercy and some for hardening especially in

regard to salvation. I do not object to God using his will. I object to what i believe is the false doctrine of

unconditional election to salvation or reprobation.
 
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