The Spiritual Elephant in the Room

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Everyone keeps talking about how water immersion doesn't save even though the Bible clearly and explicitly says that it does in multiple places.

However, what no one actually talks about is that nowhere does the Bible say that being immersed in the Holy Spirit saves.

In Truth and Love.
 

101G

Well-known member
I would like to as a question, "can one be saved before water Baptism?"

PICJAG, 101G.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Everyone keeps talking about how water immersion doesn't save even though the Bible clearly and explicitly says that it does in multiple places.

However, what no one actually talks about is that nowhere does the Bible say that being immersed in the Holy Spirit saves.

In Truth and Love.
But it does say the blood of Christ washes away sin....OK, if you want to try and have water wash away your sins, have at it.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
1 John 5:6, 8. You contact the blood in the watery grave. Stop presenting a false dichotomy and learn what your opposition actually believes before trying to argue against it.
You do know there are several interpretations of that difficult verse.

You speak of waters of baptism..others say it is a reference to the water and blood when the Roman soldier pierced Jesus.

Why must it be water baptism?
 

Son Of Saxon

Active member
I Like Riding Elephants.

Here are some Scriptures I find, point to water Baptism saving.
I will preface this with... God Saves with Water.

First I will bring attention to the Flood Story

We see text that refers to The Water and the Ark. We need to keep 1 Peter 3:20-21 in mind. I start later in the story,. RememberGod has commanded Noah to build an Ark and he gave him instructions and told him how to build it. We start after this.

I will do my best to explain the significance of these passages as they refer to, Covenants, God's use of Water, the Ark.

[Gen 6:17-19 ] 17 "Behold, I, even I am bringing the flood of water upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall perish. 18 "But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall enter the ark--you and your sons and your wife, and your sons' wives with you. 19 "And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every [kind] into the ark, to keep [them] alive with you; they shall be male and female.

Verse 17. God is using water to cleanse the earth, Destroy all flesh when he does this it will bring new life. The flesh refers to the sinful humans, and the sinful nature they have succumbed to.
Verse 18. God declares he will establish a covenant with Noah and he shall enter the ark with his sons and all the wives.
Verse 19 God gives Noah a responsibility for his creation, and has him bring them into the ark to be Alive with him.

The tone is set. God is going to use Water to remove the flesh from the earth, and at the same time, He Lays out instructions to be followed by his will to a righteous man Noah. Noah has Faith and using God's Instruction builds The ark. God Declares this Will be His Covenant, Enter the Ark and I will keep you Alive. Follow my commands and keep these living things alive,care for them. The Keen reader can already see Baptism theology rearing its head....


[Gen 7:16 ] 16 Those that entered, male and female of all flesh, entered as God had commanded him; and the LORD closed [it] behind him.

God's Covenant commands Noah to enter the Ark. Once they enter God seals them in.

God's Covenant as we will see with further text from the flood story involves Water. The water has two actions, it cleanses and saves from sin. Once Noah and his family enter the Ark as commanded God closes them in. Next we see the actions of the water.

[Gen 7:17-18] 17 Then the flood came upon the earth for forty days, and the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth. 18 The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water.

Verse 17. The Water lifts the ark so it RISES ABOVE TH EARTH. The earth is where the flesh and sin is being wiped away. Noah was lifted above this. Just as God raises us up with Christ who has new Covenant in his blood.
Verse 18.As the water prevailed and removed the sin from the earth the ark floated all those inside being saved from the sin and its result death.

Now I hope that you readers at least understand this God Saves with water. The Parralel is God sent his son so we might belive in him. God gave Noah instructions and should he believe that he follows them he will be saved. God Saves him with a Covenant to enter the Ark once it is built in faith to his word. Once we have faith in Christ through the Gospel(word) God Saves us by entering us into a covenant with him in Christ.

Now we will examine another act of God saving with water. I will not pull text for this as we all know the main parts of the Exodus story.

Moses and the Israelites come to the Red sea while being chased by those who kept Gods people in bondage. They were chased by Pharoh who would return them back into bondage and keeping them from God's promises.
Moses plants his staff and God parts the sea. The Israelites and Moses pass through the water, and as they clear the sea bed, God returns the water to its natural state, Killing many of their pursuers at the same time and saving his pepole.

God again Saves his Chosen people this time from Bondage, ultimately bondage that keeps them from his plans for them..
This can also be related to our state of bondage to our flesh and sin nature from adam.

One text I have not seen mentioned often is this

[Eze 36:23-27] 23 "I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

God seems to be talking about his plan to bring about our redemption, to show his glory, and he will ...? Baptize us with water? what does he say with that...He will cleanse us of our filthiness and all our idols. God also says he will take us from all the Nations and then sprinkle clean water on them His Son Jesus Christ says something similar in his own command.

[Mat 28:19] 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
[Mar 16:16] 16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Maybe it's just me BUT Seems like Jesus had an Idea about God's intentions. Just like Noah who believed was saved by water. We see here in Acts Peter also concurs with Ezekiel's reference to receiving the holy spirit in baptism, as God says he will give them a new heart and put a new spirit in you.
[Act 2:38 ] 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Now I agree there are plenty of texts that talk about Salvation By Grace through faith. This does not negate this. You still are saved by Gods Grace through faith in the New Covenant in Christ's blood Which you enter into through Baptism. Believing is part one baptism is the seal and work of God to remove you, from sin and raise you up in the New Covenant Bought by the blood of Christ the as declared in the Gospel.

Paul Likens Baptism to another covenant Circumcision.

[Col 2:11-12] 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Paul says we are buried with him and raised up with Him through faith by the workings of God (action of his Grace) who raised him from the dead. This is "in" baptism.

Paul again mentions this.
[Rom 6:4] 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
[Gal 3:27] 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

It's getting Late but as I have shown. God Saves with water.
There is no reason to pretend Jesus is just saying "Whoever so Believes and is baptized will be saved" is just something he is saying for no reason. God has made it clear He saves with water and wants to sprinkle us with water. Here are a few more text to ruminate on, now that we can see God Saves with water, and His son Commands Baptism.

I'll put them in some reasonable and relateable order.

[Mat 3:16] 16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove [and] lighting on Him,

[1Jo 5:5-8] 5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

[Jhn 3:5] 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[Act 22:16 ] 16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
 
Last edited:

Carbon

Well-known member
Sorry bro, but scripture does not teach baptismal regeneration. That's a practice carried over from the RCC.
 

Son Of Saxon

Active member
Sorry bro, but scripture does not teach baptismal regeneration. That's a practice carried over from the RCC.
I believe as shown above it does.
First I do not see it as a carry-over RCC Practice. The early church practiced salvific Baptism. Nor does that statement counter the text or my method.
I believe God has shown and instituted the power of his word in and with water. He also has saved those he has made covenants with water. I have given a smaller treatment of what could be a very lengthy post. I will explain how Baptism works in Regeneration in a shorter way.

Part of Regeneration which I believe is God's divine work to bring about change in us, ultimately turn us to him and to our salvation. First we are called, and we believe, then in belief, we see God's commands, he installs into us faith. Once we have faith we follow Gods commands God will bring you to Baptism, and you will enter a covenant with him.

My understanding of baptismal regeneration is based on the sovereign God, who calls us, tests us and provides for us faith so that we may be in his Grace.

Baptism to myself and Most Lutherans is not something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye. It is part of your Regeneration. Once you come out of the water you are now living your baptism. God strengthens us, in faith removes our garments of flesh and bestows upon us christ as our garment, We live in our Baptism until we die and are raised literally by God from the dead. We see it as an obvious sign of Gods work in you, and we don't refuse Christ's clear words. Or God's work with covenants and his use of water to protect against sin and bondage to masters who would put us in bondage to them. God calls us to be baptized. It is a means of his grace unto our regeneration, baptism which is a lifetime event until death when we are fully new.


It is not the water that does them, indeed, but the Word of God which is in and with the water, and faith which trusts this Word of God in the water..-Martin Luther

Luther here says a lot. When we are being drawn it is by the word of God and id say more specifically the Gospel message of Christ, which is another means of his grace together with the water and then the faith we have from this word should be true and trust the word of God in the water. When we continue on our walk with christ and our regeneration, we find assurance in baptism because of Gods word. This is one of Gods gracious blessings to the Christain. Through your faith in your Baptism, you can be assured that you are being regenerated. The importance of Baptism is the power of faith in Gods word, and his ability to save you...which is the water, as he has eluded to in a few OT text. He also in Eziekial says that it is part of his plan and he wants to baptize us as he describes, by sprinkling us with water and cleansing us of our evil vices etc. As in the story of Noah Gods power and the water remove sinful flesh from the earth while raising Noah above it and keeping him safe in his faith in the ark which is the result of faith in Gods word (the instructions to build it). We enter the Covenant that was made in Christs blood through baptism, it is part of our regeneration and the result of faith in Gods work and word and a means of grace we can strengthen. and assuredly receive his guiding spirit

[Tit 3:4-5] 4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and [His] love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
[Jhn 3:5] 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[Act 22:16 ] 16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
You do know there are several interpretations of that difficult verse.

You speak of waters of baptism..others say it is a reference to the water and blood when the Roman soldier pierced Jesus.

Why must it be water baptism?
You speak as if those things are disconnected.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Why must it be water baptism?
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
The context is not the spear in the side at crucifixion specifically. The context here is those who believe that Jesus is Christ, those that are born of God, that that love God and keep his commandments. These are not separate things. The three things that bear witness in the earth of our rebirth are Spirit, water, and blood. These three things agree in one just as the Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are one. If we are saved by the Spirit and blood, then we are saved by water as these agree in one. If we are not saved by water, then we are not saved by Spirit and blood as these agree in one. Jesus comes to us by both water and blood, not by water only, not by blood only, and not by Spirit only. These three agree in one. You can't separate them. To deny one is to deny them all.
 

Faithoverbelief

Well-known member
Baptism does not accomplish anything in itself, but is an outward personal sign that the person's sins have already been washed away by the blood of Christ's cross.

An atheist stops at a church downtown, he has questions about God and faith. The pastor is in and begins speaking with the atheist. Soon minutes become hours and the atheist declares his faith in Jesus. A baptism is scheduled for in the next couple weeks.

Unfortunately on the way home he is killed in a car accident. He suffers for all eternity? This makes no sense and seems to me to be a work instead of grace.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Baptism does not accomplish anything in itself, but is an outward personal sign that the person's sins have already been washed away by the blood of Christ's cross.

An atheist stops at a church downtown, he has questions about God and faith. The pastor is in and begins speaking with the atheist. Soon minutes become hours and the atheist declares his faith in Jesus. A baptism is scheduled for in the next couple weeks.

Unfortunately on the way home he is killed in a car accident. He suffers for all eternity? This makes no sense and seems to me to be a work instead of grace.
This misses entirely the point of the OP. Where does the Bible say that immersion in the Holy Spirit saves?
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
The point of the OP is water baptism is necessary for salvation? I'm not sure what the other part is talking about.
The point of the OP is this:

However, what no one actually talks about is that nowhere does the Bible say that being immersed in the Holy Spirit saves.
Most everyone who argues against water immersion says that every time the Bible speaks of baptism saving us, it is immerison in the Holy Spirit. But the Bible never says that being immersed in the Holy Spirit saves.
 

Faithoverbelief

Well-known member
The point of the OP is this:


Most everyone who argues against water immersion says that every time the Bible speaks of baptism saving us, it is immerison in the Holy Spirit. But the Bible never says that being immersed in the Holy Spirit saves.
Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33; Acts 1:5; 11:16; 1 Corinthians 12:13.

Matthew 3:11
King James Version

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mark 1:8
King James Version

8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Luke 3:16
King James Version

16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

John 1:33
King James Version

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 1:5
King James Version

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 11:16
King James Version

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 12:13
King James Version

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

These are the only verses I could find about baptizing or immersion in the Holy spirit or ghost. I do not see any of those verses that says" being immersed in the Holy spirit saves".
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
These are the only verses I could find about baptizing or immersion in the Holy spirit or ghost. I do not see any of those verses that says" being immersed in the Holy spirit saves".
Exactly. Which is why it is so frustrating when I talk about passages related to baptism and salvation and others (not you necessarily) argue that the passage is talking about baptism in the Holy Spirit. E.g. Acts 10.
 
Top