The Spiritual Elephant in the Room

CrowCross

Super Member
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
The context is not the spear in the side at crucifixion specifically. The context here is those who believe that Jesus is Christ, those that are born of God, that that love God and keep his commandments. These are not separate things. The three things that bear witness in the earth of our rebirth are Spirit, water, and blood. These three things agree in one just as the Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are one. If we are saved by the Spirit and blood, then we are saved by water as these agree in one. If we are not saved by water, then we are not saved by Spirit and blood as these agree in one. Jesus comes to us by both water and blood, not by water only, not by blood only, and not by Spirit only. These three agree in one. You can't separate them. To deny one is to deny them all.
You posted to much of the verse to twist it into your theology.

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Now, I believe Jesus is the Christ...and the verse says I'm born of God. This means I'm saved.... That's all that is required.
Like John 3:16 the verse your presented did not say believe and is baptized.

Your theology fails again.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Baptism does not accomplish anything in itself, but is an outward personal sign that the person's sins have already been washed away by the blood of Christ's cross.

An atheist stops at a church downtown, he has questions about God and faith. The pastor is in and begins speaking with the atheist. Soon minutes become hours and the atheist declares his faith in Jesus. A baptism is scheduled for in the next couple weeks.

Unfortunately on the way home he is killed in a car accident. He suffers for all eternity? This makes no sense and seems to me to be a work instead of grace.
Or, someone is in a battle in the middle of a desert...where there is no water. That person declairs their faith in Jesus Christ....and then moments later is killed in battle. As you said "This makes no sense and seems to me to be a work instead of grace."
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
You posted to much of the verse to twist it into your theology.
Never been accused of using too much Bible before. That's a new one.
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Now, I believe Jesus is the Christ...and the verse says I'm born of God. This means I'm saved.... That's all that is required.
Like John 3:16 the verse your presented did not say believe and is baptized.
Thank you for highlighting so well what it means to cut out only the parts you want and creating a theology from that. You have shown perfectly the difference between myself and so many others. I use ALL of the Bible to come to conclusions about what God wants. You cut out the parts you don't like. It does not get any clearer than your example above. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate this example that you have provided.
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Never been accused of using too much Bible before. That's a new one.

Thank you for highlighting so well what it means to cut out only the parts you want and creating a theology from that. You have shown perfectly the difference between myself and so many others. I use ALL of the Bible to come to conclusions about what God wants. You cut out the parts you don't like. It does not get any clearer than your example above. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate this example that you have provided.
So, John 3:16 is wrong? John left out baptism.

Keep in mind what Jesus did for us in our place. He died for us. He was perfect for us. If baptism is a requirement for salvation then He was baptized for us in our place.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
So, John 3:16 is wrong? John left out baptism.
You are still trying to force a false dichotomy. That's not how the Bible works. John 3:16 isn't wrong. It's just not the whole picture.
Keep in mind what Jesus did for us in our place. He died for us. He was perfect for us. If baptism is a requirement for salvation then He was baptized for us in our place.
Again, not how it works. That's the same as saying "if belief is a requirement for salvation then He believed for us in our place."
 

CrowCross

Super Member
You are still trying to force a false dichotomy. That's not how the Bible works. John 3:16 isn't wrong. It's just not the whole picture.

Again, not how it works. That's the same as saying "if belief is a requirement for salvation then He believed for us in our place."
Then why did Jesus and the authors of similar verses leave out baptism?
 

CrowCross

Super Member
Jesus says that you need to believe and ve baptized to be saved
If you say so....what did he say in John 3:16? Unless your translation is different than mine...there is no baptism mentioned there. John 3:18n goes on to say "Whoever believes in Him is not condemned," Once again...no baptism.

John 6:40 says...For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.".....once again no baptism.
....and we're still in John...6:40
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies....NO BAPTISM MENTIONED.

Sorry Abounds, but if you want to push that theology...have at it.

As I have said....if water baptism is a requirement there would have been biblical instruction.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Everyone keeps talking about how water immersion doesn't save even though the Bible clearly and explicitly says that it does in multiple places.

However, what no one actually talks about is that nowhere does the Bible say that being immersed in the Holy Spirit saves.

In Truth and Love.

According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, the gospel that saves decidedly does not include water baptism. If water baptism does save then Paul left it out of his letter which would make it the gospel that does not save, according to your OP.

1 Cor. 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

According to Paul, the gospel that saves is belief that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again.
 

Carbon

Super Member
According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, the gospel that saves decidedly does not include water baptism. If water baptism does save then Paul left it out of his letter which would make it the gospel that does not save, according to your OP.

1 Cor. 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

According to Paul, the gospel that saves is belief that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again.
Welcome to CARM.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
Then why did Jesus and the authors of similar verses leave out baptism?
That's what I've been trying to tell you, Crow. They didn't leave it out. Just because it's not mentioned in that one verse doesn't mean it's not important. There are many, many more verses to the Bible than John 3:16. Blood isn't mentioned in that verse. Repentance and confession aren't mentioned in that verse. The Word isn't mentioned in that verse. In fact, the rest of the NT isn't mentioned in that verse. Does that mean that the rest of the New Testament isn't important? Because that's what it looks like you are writing here.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, the gospel that saves decidedly does not include water baptism. If water baptism does save then Paul left it out of his letter which would make it the gospel that does not save, according to your OP.
Except that he didn't leave it out of his letter. He talks about it in chapter 1, talks about its type in chapter 10, talks about who really does the immersing in chapter 12, and talks about its relationship to resurrection in chapter 15, the very passage you refer to. Furthermore, the gospel (the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ) is the focal point of an entire section (we made it into a chapter - 6) in his letter to the Romans. Paul explains that it is immersion that we obey from the heart and are set free from sin, yielding ourselves to obey righteousness. Paul is he who talks about baptism as our own death, burial, and resurrection with Christ where the old man is destroyed and we are raised up to walk as newly created creatures, echoing Jesus' words about rebirth of water and of the spirit.

But you are still not answering the point of the OP. You, like so many others, are focused on why water immersion doesn't save. I am asking you to show me where immersion in the Holy Spirit does save as so many have claimed (e.g. referring to Acts 10).
1 Cor. 15:1-4
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

According to Paul, the gospel that saves is belief that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again.
As I have been saying to Crow, there is more to being saved than faith. You can quote every passage in the New Testament that says that we are saved by faith and I will agree 100% with those verses. Yet, the moment you say that those passages teach faith alone, you are leaving out all the other verses that speak of other things that save. Faith alone is dead being alone. James says that clearly, explicitly, and unequivocally.

And still, this does not answer the main point of the OP. There are many threads on this forum about water immersion and how most of the denominations are against it. This conversation is asking for evidence that immersion in the Holy Spirit (e.g. Acts 2, Acts 10-11) saves. We are 33 posts in and the question has not been touched.

Btw. Welcome to the forum. ;)
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Except that he didn't leave it out of his letter. He talks about it in chapter 1

You're saying that baptism is an essential component of salvation, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:14 that he thanks God he did not water baptize many people. Do you think Paul is thanking God that people didn't receive salvation? " 14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;"

Paul minimizes water baptism, saying that, on the contrary, God did not even send him to baptize, but the preach the gospel. 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

The gospel Paul came to preach is briefly summarized in 1 Cor. 15. - Christ died for our sins, died, then resurrected.

talks about its type in chapter 10
Does not say any doctrine about baptism for salvation.

talks about who really does the immersing in chapter 12
Chapter 12 does not talk about water baptism, but Holy Spirit baptism into a spiritual, unified, body: 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

and talks about its relationship to resurrection in chapter 15
The "baptism for the dead" you are referring to in chapter 15, Paul actually debunks. Paul is basically saying that if there is no resurrection of the dead then why bother with getting baptized? It's a rhetorical question, and this is kind of a mysterious passage since there are not enough scriptures to form a substitutionary water baptism doctrine.

As I have been saying to Crow, there is more to being saved than faith. You can quote every passage in the New Testament that says that we are saved by faith and I will agree 100% with those verses. Yet, the moment you say that those passages teach faith alone, you are leaving out all the other verses that speak of other things that save.
What other verses? The ones you have showed me don't say that water baptism is a necessary component of salvation.

faith alone is dead being alone. James says that clearly, explicitly, and unequivocally.
God knows who's faith is real regardless of what they do. That isn't the point that James is making in chapter 2. The fully context reveals that it is faith with a combination with works that proves faith to other people, not God:

James 2:18
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Furthermore, it doesn't say that water baptism is a work that results in salvation.

Btw. Welcome to the forum. ;)
Thank you! :)
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
You're saying that baptism is an essential component of salvation, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:14 that he thanks God he did not water baptize many people. Do you think Paul is thanking God that people didn't receive salvation? " 14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;"

Paul minimizes water baptism, saying that, on the contrary, God did not even send him to baptize, but the preach the gospel. 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Paul's discussion in chapter 1 is about the baptizer and the division that was causing. He is not saying baptism is not important. He is saying the man that does the baptizing isn't important. He is glad not to have done much baptizing personally because he did not want people dividing in his name (take note, Catholics!).
The gospel Paul came to preach is briefly summarized in 1 Cor. 15. - Christ died for our sins, died, then resurrected.


Does not say any doctrine about baptism for salvation.
verse 29.
Chapter 12 does not talk about water baptism, but Holy Spirit baptism into a spiritual, unified, body: 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
No. It talks about being immersed by one Spirit, not in one Spirit. It's an allusion back to the first chapter and who does the immersing. Paul is making the point that the one who is really doing the immersing is the Holy Spirit. But He is not the element. Water is the element. The Holy Spirit is the authority through the inspired Word (see Eph. 5:26).
The "baptism for the dead" you are referring to in chapter 15, Paul actually debunks. Paul is basically saying that if there is no resurrection of the dead then why bother with getting baptized? It's a rhetorical question, and this is kind of a mysterious passage since there are not enough scriptures to form a substitutionary water baptism doctrine.
It's not mysterious at all. You nailed the reason. If there is no resurrection of the dead, then why bother getting immersed? Why is this an important question? Because there is a resurrection of the dead and you must be immersed to take part in it.
What other verses? The ones you have showed me don't say that water baptism is a necessary component of salvation.
I'd rather focus on the OP. If you want to talk about water immersion, there are a host of other threads to talk about that in. I'm in a lot of the recent ones.
God knows who's faith is real regardless of what they do. That isn't the point that James is making in chapter 2. The fully context reveals that it is faith with a combination with works that proves faith to other people, not God:

James 2:18
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
This is not the point of James' writing here and it is certainly not teaching that works are for the purpose of showing other men your faith. It's just a statement illustrating that you can't have genuine saving faith disassociated from works. Faith without works is dead. If you believe you can be saved by faith alone, without works, then you believe you are saved by a dead faith.
Furthermore, it doesn't say that water baptism is a work that results in salvation.
It's like you denominational folk need every verse in the Bible to say "water baptism" before you'll accept that it's part of the New Testament.


1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham and water baptism does also now save you.

2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; and water baptism does also now save you.

3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; and water baptism does also now save you.

4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; and water baptism does also now save you.

5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; and water baptism does also now save you.

6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; and water baptism does also now save you.

7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; and water baptism does also now save you.

8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; and water baptism does also now save you.

9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; and water baptism does also now save you.

10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; and water baptism does also now save you.

11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: and water baptism does also now save you.

12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; and water baptism does also now save you.

13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; and water baptism does also now save you.

14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; and water baptism does also now save you.

15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; and water baptism does also now save you.

16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. and water baptism does also now save you.

If your Bible read this way, would you accept it then?

And, now, back to the OP. Where does the Bible say immersion in the Holy Spirit saves?
 

Runningman

Well-known member
And, now, back to the OP. Where does the Bible say immersion in the Holy Spirit saves?
I think rather the baptism of the Holy Spirit is something that God does in response to our faith in the gospel.

Ephesians 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1. Hear the word of truth (the gospel of salvation)
2. Trust Jesus
3. After believing the gospel of salvation, be sealed with the Holy Spirit.

The seal of the Holy Spirit is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. God does the Spirit baptism.

1 Cor. 12:13
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
 

Son Of Saxon

Active member
I do think a lot of people have some confusions, Like Carm runner Matt Slick. Dr.Jordan Cooper clears up some misunderstandings. Baptism IS part of your Regeneration through faith by Grace. As is the Gospel.

 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
I think rather the baptism of the Holy Spirit is something that God does in response to our faith in the gospel.
So immersion in the Holy Spirit doesn't save? I agree that it was something that was said to have come after they were saved, even after they were immersed in water (Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12-17; Acts 19:1-6), certainly well after they beleived.
Ephesians 1:13
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1. Hear the word of truth (the gospel of salvation)
2. Trust Jesus
3. After believing the gospel of salvation, be sealed with the Holy Spirit.

The seal of the Holy Spirit is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. God does the Spirit baptism.
But does it save?
1 Cor. 12:13
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
But this is by not in so its not the thing we are talking about. We are immersed in water by the word (Eph. 5:26).
 

Runningman

Well-known member
So immersion in the Holy Spirit doesn't save? I agree that it was something that was said to have come after they were saved, even after they were immersed in water (Acts 2:38; Acts 8:12-17; Acts 19:1-6), certainly well after they beleived.

But does it save?

But this is by not in so its not the thing we are talking about. We are immersed in water by the word (Eph. 5:26).
The way I understand it is that because we are saved we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit enables us to really have that born again experience. It's our proof to us that what the Bible said would happen did, in fact, happen. The Holy Spirit is our deposit, our guarantee that our faith is based on reality.

Hebrews 10:15-17
15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
 

Kade Rystalmane

Well-known member
The way I understand it is that because we are saved we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit enables us to really have that born again experience. It's our proof to us that what the Bible said would happen did, in fact, happen. The Holy Spirit is our deposit, our guarantee that our faith is based on reality.
The Bible never talks about being immersed in the Holy Spirit saving us. It talks about what the Holy Spirit did for them in the first century after they were saved and in Christ. But the seal was put on them after they were in Christ. You don't seal a scroll/letter before anything else.

The Seal was something for the first century only.

The Question & Premise​

Ephesians 1:13 - "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

What is the mechanics of this sealing and was there a duration for a specific purpose? I propose to you that the sealing of the Holy Spirit was a particular event for a specific purpose and duration.

In 2 Cor. 1:21-22, Paul writes "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Definitions​

Anointing

An anointing was a self-evident mark of assignment to a specific task/office/service. This particular anointing was a supernatural endowment (gift) to authenticate the appointment to that task/office/service.

Exodus 28:41 - "And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office."

1 Samuel 16:13 - "Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah."

John 12:3 - "Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment."

Seal

A seal is a visible mark used to authenticate or prove the authority of a message (e.g. a signet ring's mark on a letter). Miraculous abilities through the Holy Spirit were the Divine “seal of approval” of God’s message to mankind. To propose an interpretation of the “sealing” process in which one must use the Scriptures to prove that man has “the Holy Spirit” as a seal reverses the meaning of the word “seal.” For example: the visible seal on an envelope proves the authenticity of the message inside; it is NOT the message that authenticates the seal.

Biblical examples of seals:

1 Kings 21:8 - "So she wrote letters in Ahab's name, and sealed them with his seal, and sent the letters unto the elders and to the nobles that were in his city, dwelling with Naboth."

Esther 3:12 - "Then were the king's scribes called on the thirteenth day of the first month, and there was written according to all that Haman had commanded unto the king's lieutenants, and to the governors that were over every province, and to the rulers of every people of every province according to the writing thereof, and to every people after their language; in the name of king Ahasuerus was it written, and sealed with the king's ring."

Matthew 27:66 - "So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch."

Romans 4:11 - "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:"

Revelation 5:1 - "And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals."

Earnest

An earnest is a pledge or down payment. The earnest is the tangible, discernible evidence of other things to come. The earnest must be self-evident, i.e., not dependent on other witnesses to prove its existence or validity, because it is the proof of other things. Paul told the Corinthians that God gave “us” (those with miraculous abilities) the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Some view the word “heart” in this verse as supporting the view that the Holy Spirit Himself literally dwells in the hearts of all Christians. But, “heart” is clearly figurative. God has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God (2 Cor 4:4-6), the love of God has been poured out in our hearts (Rom 5:5) The evidence goes into man’s intellectual capability (mind/heart). There cannot be a literal dwelling in a figurative place.

Purpose and Duration​

God established His messengers with:

An anointing, a seal, and an earnest

All three terms refer to proofs that could be discerned through the senses.

The miraculous abilities provided that confirming proof of God’s message.

(Eph 1:13 KJV) "...after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

In Acts 19:1-7, twelve Ephesians were given the miraculous gifts AFTER they were baptized. (Acts 19:5-6) "they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied." The “sealing” of the Ephesians occurred after, not when they believed. The sequence of events is important. This “sealing” cannot be something that the Ephesians (or all Christians) receive WHEN they are baptized.

It is something (miraculous abilities) that the Ephesians received AFTER they were baptized (when an Apostle’s hands were laid on them).

So the purpose of the Holy Spirit was to confirm through miracles that those who were speaking, revealing the NT to the world, were doing so with God's authority. The duration of this was until that Word, that gospel, that New Testament was fully revealed or delivered to mankind (toward the end of the first century - 1 Cor. 13). The mechanics of the sealing then was the direct immersion in the Holy Spirit of the Apostles (Acts 2; Paul) who then laid their hands on people after they had been immersed into Christ (Acts 8; Acts 19). The earnest was toward the complete establishment of the church, the completion of the redemption of The Body not individual bodies. Note that in Romans 8:23 Paul writes that they waited for the redemption of "our (plural) body (singular)" not "our bodies".

Applications​

There are several applications that can be made from this understanding of what the scriptures teach about the nature and duration of the seal of the Holy Spirit.

First, it means that this sealing and immediate indwelling was of a temporary nature and is not something that should be looked for or sought after in modern times just as miracles themselves should not be. It also means that those who claim such an indwelling must be able to show evidence of that indwelling and none of them can.

Second, it puts to rest the idea that the Holy Spirit guides us supernaturally in our understanding of scripture. Those who misapply John 14-17 universally instead of just to the Apostles claim that the Holy Spirit guides all Christians into all truth. This is not only not true, it rejects the purpose and power of the Bible itself. 2 Peter 1:3 says that they had already been given all truth. Jude 3 says that the mission was accomplished, that The Faith was once and for all delivered to the saints. There isn't any more truth to be guided to. The Bible is all-sufficient (2 Tim. 3:16-17) and we must exert our free will to study and rightly understand it (2 Tim. 2:15) and let it do the convincing (Rom. 10:17) and saving (Rom. 1:16; James 1:21).

Finally, it means that denominational doctrines like the argument for Once Saved Always Saved from the seal of the Holy Spirit are invalid because they do not correctly identify the nature and purpose of the seal.
 
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