The Spiritual Elephant in the Room

[Son Of Saxon]

It's brutal to see such massive denials of Baptism in these forums.

"Unless you are born of water and spirit"

The number of parallel scriptures to that alone. Yet our apparent Christian brothers use verses that don't have baptism in it to pretend the Bible isn't talking about it constantly. Notice my Eziekail usage? God explains his plan for our salvation. No one wants to touch that, my whole post ignored. Why because they don't have easy outs "by Grace through faith" how little they actually understand how that works.

sad state.

 

[shnarkle]

Everyone keeps talking about how water immersion doesn't save even though the Bible clearly and explicitly says that it does in multiple places.

However, what no one actually talks about is that nowhere does the Bible say that being immersed in the Holy Spirit saves.

In Truth and Love.

John points out that he baptizes in water as a token of repentance while Christ baptizes in the spirit. Repentance is a gift of the spirit which can only be given to those who have been saved. The carnal man cannot do anything to please God. Anything must include repentance or Paul is presenting one extremely sloppy argument

 

[Carbon]

It's brutal to see such massive denials of Baptism in these forums.

"Unless you are born of water and spirit"

Why would you think baptism would mean anything other then being baptized in the Spirit by Christ, being born again? Or, water symbolizing being clean from sin, after being born of the Spirit.

Jesus is teaching Nicodemus in John 3 about being born again.

Nicodemus askes Jesus how can these things be?
9Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?
Just like circumcision in the OT didn't save, baptism in the NT does not save. There would be no reason for Nicodemus to even think baptism would mean anything, if it did Jesus would have included it in the rest of the chapter with him.

Jesus goes on to teach,
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Jesu is telling him the truth of who He is, and how one may have eternal life. Who ever "believes" in Him. Nothing about water baptism.

Why would you suggest an external sign saves?

The number of parallel scriptures to that alone.

Where?

Yet our apparent Christian brothers use verses that don't have baptism in it to pretend the Bible isn't talking about it constantly. Notice my Eziekail usage? God explains his plan for our salvation. No one wants to touch that, my whole post ignored. Why because they don't have easy outs "by Grace through faith" how little they actually understand how that works.

sad state.

My friend, anything added to saved by grace through faith alone is salvation by works.

 

[Carbon]

Why would you think baptism would mean anything other then being baptized in the Spirit by Christ, being born again? Or, water symbolizing being clean from sin, after being born of the Spirit.

Jesus is teaching Nicodemus in John 3 about being born again.

Nicodemus askes Jesus how can these things be?
9Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?
Just like circumcision in the OT didn't save, baptism in the NT does not save. There would be no reason for Nicodemus to even think baptism would mean anything, if it did Jesus would have included it in the rest of the chapter with him.

Jesus goes on to teach,
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Jesu is telling him the truth of who He is, and how one may have eternal life. Who ever "believes" in Him. Nothing about water baptism.

Why would you suggest an external sign saves?



Where?


My friend, anything added to saved by grace through faith alone is salvation by works.

I think by "by water" he means the expiation and remission of sin, and by the Spirit, the whole work of regeneration.

 

[Carbon]

The only thing I could see where baptism would mean anything to Nicodemus other then what I mentioned would be in the story of the flood, where 8 people were saved or the parting of the Red Sea. But of course, that would be less support for baptismal salvation.

 

[Son Of Saxon]

Why would you think baptism would mean anything other then being baptized in the Spirit by Christ, being born again? Or, water symbolizing being clean from sin, after being born of the Spirit.

I would and do think this due to the constant separation of the two words. Water and spirit are separate.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus himself seperates them

Jesus is teaching Nicodemus in John 3 about being born again.

Nicodemus askes Jesus how can these things be?
9Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?
Just like circumcision in the OT didn't save, baptism in the NT does not save. There would be no reason for Nicodemus to even think baptism would mean anything, if it did Jesus would have included it in the rest of the chapter with him.

There is plenty of reason for Nicodemus to think he means Baptism. At that time Baptism was the biggest spiritual and religious current in the Jewish/hebrew world. John was visited by people from all over to be baptized by him. John 3 also follows up this passage with more baptism passages or talks about baptism. So at this time on earth, the Baptism by John was one of the greatest matters of interest in the land.

Something else that is quite telling about this time and Baptism. The high priests of the jews and their membership came to visit John to ask if he was Christ. Because he was Baptizing, and the Jews were well aware that Christ, the foretold savior would come and baptize with water. So they first assumed that John was the Christ. Which John gladly denies. So Christ and Baptism were part of the new covenant, in the mind of the Jews at the time.
John 1:20-21
20 And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21 They asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No." ... 25 They asked him, and said to him, "Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?

Nicodemus himself just like the Pharisees in this passage would be well aware of water baptism. It was also at one point a ritual cleaning to the Jews before entering the temple, etc. (which is an important note in itself)

In these passages, John is clear to have his baptism related baptism to water, and water to baptism. Matt 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16 John 1:26,31,33 and Acts 1:5.
(more on this and the holy spirit later, as I know you will have points to this)

Jesus goes on to teach,
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Jesu is telling him the truth of who He is, and how one may have eternal life. Who ever "believes" in Him. Nothing about water baptism.

Why would you suggest an external sign saves?

Jesus says in Matt 16:16 Whosoever Believes....and...is baptized will be saved.

As for external signs, it is only in part an external sign or Witness as I prefer.

When Sau (paul)l was converted.... what was said after this...? Why would this be so important?
Act 22:16
'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

So clearly Saul believed Christ, especially after all that occurred and losing his sight, and regaining it.

Saul Believed, then was baptized. It was also made pretty clear it needed to happen, and was important, nothing about a sign, but he does mention the effect! Wash away your sins, calling on his name.

Two Instances of Phillip where it becomes obvious....You Believe, and the apostles say ....baptism.

Act 8:12-13
But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. 13 Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

Act 8:36-38
36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" 37 [And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."] 38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

We see the clear order here, Belive, then baptized. It seems that it's more than a sign.


Ask Paul what John 3:6 means. He tells us in Titus 3:5 (text shown below in parallels)
Paul, what is it to be born again?
"It is to experience regeneration and renewing"
What is the water we must be born of?
"It is the washing of regeneration"
What s the Spirit?
"The Holy Spirit"
What is it to enter into the Kingdom of God?
"To be saved"

Another text I believe shows this to be more than a simple sign. In this context God is now willing to act against his glory being profaned by the Israelites He tells Ezekiel what his plan is. He mentions nowhere of making a sign, but he does refer to Cleaning people of sins with water.
Eze 36:24-28
24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

It's Interesting the Order in which God touches on all of this...shall we Gander at what the apostles say that mirrors this Statement and promise of Gods?

Act 2:38
38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Just like God spoke, Water cleans sins, and he will give you his Spirit. First, of course, you must believe.

Where?

Parallels are Between:
Born of God, and Regeneration and Renewing.
Water and Washing.
Spirit and Holy Spirit.

These Texts sus-out parallels and promote Baptism.

Tit 3:5
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Eph 5:25,26
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

Heb 10:21-22
21 and since [we have] a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled [clean] from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

1Jo 5:6-8
6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

1Pe 3:20-21
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through [the] water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

As you can see Water and Spirit are often parallel in Salvation through Christ. Faith In God Grace towards us.

My friend, anything added to saved by grace through faith alone is salvation by works.

Baptism is a work of God. Unto our salvation. There is no work on our behalf. See Ezekiel, and Mark 16:16. We receive faith from the word/gospel which are means of God's Grace (i believe the reformed also follow this) This Grace also Bestows upon us freely, Faith. We then believe, and if we do believe we will be Baptized, and sealed in the covenant with Christ in the church. As Noah Entered the ark, he showed he believed, God sealed him in the ark (body of christ/church) and he was saved by water, or through water, depending on your translation. Was the flood water symbolic? was the red sea symbolic? or did they really save? Why would Jesus tell Nicodemus that water and spirit are how you get into the kingdom, but expect him to know water is simply a symbol? He doesn't, Jesus says Water and Spirit. This also follows God's plan set out in Ezekiel. Cleansed by Water, then spirit. This also follows the above Parallels.

 

[Son Of Saxon]

Also, the Thief on the cross was saved Prior to saving Baptism So for Lutherans anyway this isn't an argument against baptism.. Baptism doesn't do anything until Christ's work was completed, hence the Holy Spirit(comforting spirit) is given to apostles who were baptized after his resurrection.... There are only extraordinary situations where God's Sovereign Judgement is exercised over baptism. For instance, unlike Some reformed members, I think God Saves babies. This would be an example of extraordinarily.
So I like many of my Ilk and biblical understanding, would say..Baptism is ordinarily necessary for salvation, but not extraordinaily. This also gives great assurance.


I'll assume you may ask next what being called and regeneration looks like to someone like me.? That would be pretty lengthy and perhaps better suited in its own topic. So maybe later this week I can dig into that. I always find it a fun topic with my Reformed brother, as we use certain words a little differently, and it brings us to different conclusions. Like I believe in previeniant Grace as a term, but not in usage as say, an Arminian would use it.


Hope this helped with understanding why I view Baptism as ultimately important and necessary, I look forward to answering more question, or points if you have any.

 

[Carbon]

I would and do think this due to the constant separation of the two words. Water and spirit are separate.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus himself seperates them


There is plenty of reason for Nicodemus to think he means Baptism. At that time Baptism was the biggest spiritual and religious current in the Jewish/hebrew world. John was visited by people from all over to be baptized by him. John 3 also follows up this passage with more baptism passages or talks about baptism. So at this time on earth, the Baptism by John was one of the greatest matters of interest in the land.

I think your grasping at straws. By adding water baptism for salvation is adding works to salvation.

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, the Great Commission had not been given, why would Jesus even expect him to think of Christian baptism if it had not yet been instituted?

What Jesus did expect of Nicodemus was to know in his vocation as a teacher of Israel was the Hebrew Scriptures, or the Old Testament.

And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19.

Something else that is quite telling about this time and Baptism. The high priests of the jews and their membership came to visit John to ask if he was Christ. Because he was Baptizing, and the Jews were well aware that Christ, the foretold savior would come and baptize with water. So they first assumed that John was the Christ. Which John gladly denies. So Christ and Baptism were part of the new covenant, in the mind of the Jews at the time.
John 1:20-21
20 And he confessed and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21 They asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No." ... 25 They asked him, and said to him, "Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?

It's quite obvious it would be known of and related to Jesus since John was baptizing, baptism of repentance. and The Messiah was prophesized. “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. Mal 4:5.

And the Jews would surely notice baptism since there were so many religious washings observed. So, they thought, who was John to do such a thing?

“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— Duet 18.

 

[Carbon]

Also, the Thief on the cross was saved Prior to saving Baptism

So one can be saved one way or another? there are two ways to be saved?

So for Lutherans anyway this isn't an argument against baptism.. Baptism doesn't do anything until Christ's work was completed, hence the Holy Spirit(comforting spirit) is given to apostles who were baptized after his resurrection.... There are only extraordinary situations where God's Sovereign Judgement is exercised over baptism. For instance, unlike Some reformed members, I think God Saves babies. This would be an example of extraordinarily.
So I like many of my Ilk and biblical understanding, would say..Baptism is ordinarily necessary for salvation, but not extraordinaily. This also gives great assurance.

There is nothing in scripture about God making exceptions, that would be extrabiblical.

I'll assume you may ask next what being called and regeneration looks like to someone like me.? That would be pretty lengthy and perhaps better suited in its own topic.

Okay.

So maybe later this week I can dig into that. I always find it a fun topic with my Reformed brother, as we use certain words a little differently, and it brings us to different conclusions. Like I believe in previeniant Grace as a term, but not in usage as say, an Arminian would use it.

I understand the difference.

Hope this helped with understanding why I view Baptism as ultimately important and necessary, I look forward to answering more question, or points if you have any.

I do have a better understanding, thanks.

 

[Carbon]

Here is an article that might interest you.

Baptism and Regeneration​

“Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.’ ”
- John 3:5
As is true of the second Christian sacrament, the Lord’s Supper, the sacrament of baptism signifies or points to several spiritual realities. Westminster Confession of Faith 28.1 helpfully lists several of these realities, and one of them is regeneration, or the new birth that the Holy Spirit grants to the elect.
Today’s passage is given in the confession as a prooftext for the connection between baptism and regeneration. This is interesting because in the context of Jesus’ original encounter with Nicodemus, from which the statement recorded in John 3:5 comes, our Savior was almost certainly not referring specifically to Christian baptism. After all, at the time Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, the Great Commission had not been given, and Jesus could hardly have expected him to think of Christian baptism if it had not yet been instituted. What our Lord did expect Nicodemus to know in his vocation as a teacher of Israel was the Hebrew Scriptures, or the Old Testament. There, in Ezekiel 36:25–27, we find a prophecy that God would sprinkle clean water on His people Israel and fill them with His Spirit and with new life after they experienced the metaphorical death of the Babylonian exile.
Were the Westminster divines, the authors of the Westminster Confession, wrong, then, to include John 3:5 as a prooftext connecting water baptism and regeneration? No, because while there is no direct reference to baptism in Jesus’ words to Nicodemus, Scripture does frequently connect water imagery with regeneration. Jesus uses water and Spirit to refer to regeneration in John 3:5, and many other texts allude to the image of “washing” in connection with regeneration (Eph. 5:26; Titus 3:5). Baptism is a washing with water, so if Scripture connects regeneration and water, we must ultimately see the water of baptism as pointing to the reality of spiritual renewal.
So, baptism tangibly confirms God’s promise to cleanse from sin and give new life to all whom He has appointed. In itself, the rite of baptism does not confer new life, but the sacramental union between baptism and regeneration means that ordinarily, no one is regenerated without also, at some point in his life, receiving the sacrament of baptism. When we struggle to believe that God has granted us new spiritual life we can remember our baptism and be encouraged that the Lord, who cannot break His promises, has regenerated all who believe in Christ alone for salvation.

Coram Deo​

John Calvin comments that Jesus “connects the Water with the Spirit, because under that visible symbol he attests and seals that newness of life which God alone produces in us by his Spirit.” God promises in baptism to regenerate His people, and if you believe in Jesus, He has given you spiritual life. If you struggle with assurance this day, look to your baptism as a reminder of God’s faithfulness to cleanse you from your sin.

Baptism and Regeneration

As is true of the second Christian sacrament, the Lord’s Supper, the sacrament of baptism signifies or points to several spiritual realities. Westminster Confession of Faith 28.1 helpfully lists several of these realities, and one ...

www.ligonier.org

 

[Son Of Saxon]

I think your grasping at straws. By adding water baptism for salvation is adding works to salvation.

When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, the Great Commission had not been given, why would Jesus even expect him to think of Christian baptism if it had not yet been instituted?

First I only have time to reply to this but will tackle the newer posts tomorrow.

Jesus was instituting it at the time. Paul says that Baptism is a work of God. We are buried with Christ and risen with Christ in baptism through the working of God.

thinking of "Christian baptism" was not his intent. He intended to inform him on how one is born again....are you suggesting people outside of the apostles were born again before the resurrection...if so how? Also debatable that they were truly born again until Jesus breathed the spirit on them post resurrection or on the day of it....Interested in Your answer here.

What Jesus did expect of Nicodemus was to know in his vocation as a teacher of Israel was the Hebrew Scriptures, or the Old Testament.

And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 19.

This to me only suggests Paul understood fully that Baptism now brought the Holy Spirit. As God said in Ezekiel. If those candidates of Johns did not receive the holy spirit then Paul used Baptism to have them receive it.

It's quite obvious it would be known of and related to Jesus since John was baptizing, baptism of repentance. and The Messiah was prophesized. “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. Mal 4:5.

And the Jews would surely notice baptism since there were so many religious washings observed. So, they thought, who was John to do such a thing?

“The Lord your God will raise for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— Duet 18.

I am un the why they thought he was Christ then. Thats what they asked him. Due to his baptizing.
Johns's Baptism is for repentance. However, they were aware that this could mean he was the Christ. Hence why they asked.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

Why would you think baptism would mean anything other then being baptized in the Spirit by Christ, being born again? Or, water symbolizing being clean from sin, after being born of the Spirit.

Because, when you take more than a cookiecutter approach to scripture, when you read ALL the verses together instead of ignoring some in favor of what you already believe, that's what the Bible actually teaches.

Jesus is teaching Nicodemus in John 3 about being born again.

Nicodemus askes Jesus how can these things be?
9Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?
Just like circumcision in the OT didn't save, baptism in the NT does not save. There would be no reason for Nicodemus to even think baptism would mean anything, if it did Jesus would have included it in the rest of the chapter with him.

Nicodemus would have known well all the types of the OT pointing to the NT antitype of water immersion.

The Flood that destroyed sin and saved Noah's family from it.
The crossing of the Red Sea (a big one for Nicodemus) that marked the point of transition from bondage to Egypt to freedom under God.
The various washings under the Mosaical Law: the washing of the priest, the washing of the tabernacle, the washing of unclean items in the water of separation, etc.
Naaman's washing in the Jordan that cleansed him of leprosy.

These types each taught about what NT water immersion would do. It would destroy sin, free us from slavery to sin, sanctify and cleanse us just as the Bible teaches NT immersion would do. (1 Pet. 3:21; Romans 6; Eph. 5:26; Acts 2:38).

Jesus goes on to teach,
13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Jesu is telling him the truth of who He is, and how one may have eternal life. Who ever "believes" in Him. Nothing about water baptism.

This is getting to the point of assinine. It would be like me reading Acts 2:38; 1 Pet. 3:21 and saying water immersion only saves because only baptism is in each of those passages. It's just willfully ignorant to read a verse and say "it doesn't have these other things in that one verse so that other thing must not be necessary". Read the whole Bible and take it as a whole. Belief, repentance, confession, immersion, and faithfulness are all required.

Why would you suggest an external sign saves?

It's not an external sign. Water immersion is NEVER referred to as such in scripture. That's a man-made doctrine that is added to the scripture out of man's arrogance thinking he knows better than God how God saves us.

Where?

We've shown you over and over and you ignore them.

My friend, anything added to saved by grace through faith alone is salvation by works.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that if those works are works of obedience instead of self-righteousness or works of the law of Moses. But you don't make the distinction and so you don't understand...willfully so, I believe.

 

[Timtofly]

It's brutal to see such massive denials of Baptism in these forums.

"Unless you are born of water and spirit"

The number of parallel scriptures to that alone. Yet our apparent Christian brothers use verses that don't have baptism in it to pretend the Bible isn't talking about it constantly. Notice my Eziekail usage? God explains his plan for our salvation. No one wants to touch that, my whole post ignored. Why because they don't have easy outs "by Grace through faith" how little they actually understand how that works.

sad state.

All are baptized in the womb. That should suffice, no?

Certainly all have to be born of flesh first. The soul is sealed at conception, by the Holy Spirit. The earnest of God towards us. We have to have flesh to live first. To live of the spirit, we have to let the Holy Spirit control us, being born the second time. We do not have a choice in being born. We have a choice of being conformed to the image of the Son. Neither this flesh, nor the Holy Spirit are who we are. They only get us through life, and only if we let them do their job. If they do their job, then we will do the works, including a public confession via baptism. But getting wet does nothing but takes care of the flesh. It is the inner man that needs to submit, not the outward works.

 

[Gary Mac]

I dont believe so.

Then the thief on the cross was out of luck huh?

 

[Chalcedon]

But it does say the blood of Christ washes away sin....OK, if you want to try and have water wash away your sins, have at it.

Amen to that baptism like communion does not save they are done as a reminder of what has already taken place by Christ on our behalf. Those who believe otherwise have a misplaced faith in the water, bread and wine which are the shadows, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Its much like the jews who put their faith in the sacrificing of animals to take away their sin when its Christ who takes away our sin, not the animal. These pharisees do the same thing with baptism and communion. I grew up Lutheran and married an ex Catholic. Praise God that he used me to get her out of that harlot church as she never knew a person could have a personal relationship with Jesus. She saw how Christ changed my life with a complete 180* turn around and wanted that for her life too. She was lost in all the rituals and not the Person and work of Christ on our behalf.

hope this helps !!!

 

[CrowCross]

Amen to that baptism like communion does not save they are done as a reminder of what has already taken place by Christ on our behalf. Those who believe otherwise have a misplaced faith in the water, bread and wine which are the shadows, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Its much like the jews who put their faith in the sacrificing of animals to take away their sin when its Christ who takes away our sin, not the animal. These pharisees do the same thing with baptism and communion. I grew up Lutheran and married an ex Catholic. Praise God that he used me to get her out of that harlot church as she never knew a person could have a personal relationship with Jesus. She saw how Christ changed my life with a complete 180* turn around and wanted that for her life too. She was lost in all the rituals and not the Person and work of Christ on our behalf.

hope this helps !!!

I liked the statement "Its much like the jews who put their faith in the sacrificing of animals to take away their sin when its Christ who takes away our sin"

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

Then the thief on the cross was out of luck huh?

This invalid argument has been dealt with extensively in this thread and elsewhere.

 

[Gary Mac]

This invalid argument has been dealt with extensively in this thread and elsewhere.

I see so the thief on the cross really didnt get saved and Jesus only spew words with no meaning?

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

I see so the thief on the cross really didnt get saved and Jesus only spew words with no meaning?

Did you read the posts?

The thief was saved before the death of Jesus and so was saved in terms of the Old Covenant, not the New. The New did not go into effect until the death of the Testator (Heb. 9:16). The thief could not have been immersed into the death of Christ (Romans 6) because Jesus wasn't dead yet. We know this because Jesus was speaking to the thief.

For the argument against immersion to be valid, you'd have to find an example of someone who was saved after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus without being immersed in water into the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Acts is really the only place to find such examples of people being saved, but every example of someone being saved has someone being immersed in water.

 

[Kade Rystalmane]

Its much like the jews who put their faith in the sacrificing of animals to take away their sin when its Christ who takes away our sin, not the animal. ...

hope this helps !!!

Hey civic,

I understand what you are saying here, but that's not a correct comparison. The sacrificing of animals could not take away their sins (and indeed they knew this), but they were a type pointing to the NT antitype of Christ as the perfect unspotted Lamb that was sacrificed that could. While I don't hold that communion is involved, one must ask where the blood of Christ is applied to the sinner to save them. It isn't at faith alone because dead faith doesn't save. We have multiple passages tying the water and the blood together (John 19:34; Romans 6:3-5; 1 John 5:6-8) and those are just the obvious ones. We could dig deeper into water and wine (John 2) and the wine and blood connection (1 Cor. 11) if we needed to.

We aren't putting our faith in the water. We are putting our faith in God. He commanded this as necessary for salvation. If God commanded it as necessary for salvation, I believe Him and will comply. And when I have done what God has commanded me to do, I will say what Jesus said we should in Luke 17:10 - "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."