The Strong Delusion, 2 Thessalonians 2:11

Truth7t7

Active member
(The Strong Delusion)

(2 Thessalonians) 2:9-12KJV
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

(Revelation) 13:11-14KJV
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles
which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

(Revelation) 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
 

Hark

Well-known member
(The Strong Delusion)

(2 Thessalonians) 2:9-12KJV
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
The above quoted scripture has nothing to do with the ones below in the quotes.
(Revelation) 13:11-14KJV
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles
which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

(Revelation) 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
When you read that Paul was testifying that this iniquity was already at work in his day ( verse 7 ) that will happen in droves in the latter days for that prophesied falling away from the faith ( verses 1-3 ), this cannot be tied to those references in Revelation.

Paul points out the strong delusion as occurring for believing the lie which causes the falling away from the fait in verses 9-12, citing a damnation which I can cross reference as inferring the vessel unto dishonor in His House since former believers are still saved ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 note verse 20 with more proof in 2 Timothy 2:11-13 on how after denying Him, He still abides in former believers )).

Now for Paul to cite that lie for how that strong delusion will occur, Paul would cite that reproof towards that lie cited in verses 9-12 and that reproof can be found in verses 13-15 about the tradition taught of us as to when the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth was received which was at the calling of the gospel. That means the Holy Spirit cannot be received again at any other time in the life of a saved believer so they can test the spirits & know feeling any spirit coming over them bringing a sign, even a sign of tongues later in life or feeling that spirit in the worship place IS NOT the Holy Spirit.

Paul goes on to the 3rd chapter in 2 Thessalonians addressing those that have fallen away from the faith and are disorderly as they are in slain in the spirit, holy laughter movement, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade, another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues or by a sign of tongues, and etc. where people fall backwards or fall down in a loss of self control, wherein God is not the author of confusion but of peace in ALL churches of the saints to KNOW that this extra phenomenon is not of Him at all, but as he relays the Lord's commandments to withdraw from them in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7, he points out to not treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers for they are still saved, but at risk of being denied by Him by that iniquity for denying Him in them as always filled; Matthew 9:17

So that is how to apply Paul's words in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter, as a warning to the believers & the churches in these latter days.

I am sure that this iniquity may very well unite the one world church in the coming great tribulation because this receiving of spirits in speaking nonsense gibberish supernatural tongues can be found in other religions, idolatries in the past, and the occults today.

That is why the real God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people in their native tongue as prophesied per 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 as it will neve mimic that supernatural tongue found in the world as they speak as the world speaks; 1 John 4:1-6 & Isaiah 8:19
 

Truth7t7

Active member
The above quoted scripture has nothing to do with the ones below in the quotes.

When you read that Paul was testifying that this iniquity was already at work in his day ( verse 7 ) that will happen in droves in the latter days for that prophesied falling away from the faith ( verses 1-3 ), this cannot be tied to those references in Revelation.

Paul points out the strong delusion as occurring for believing the lie which causes the falling away from the fait in verses 9-12, citing a damnation which I can cross reference as inferring the vessel unto dishonor in His House since former believers are still saved ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 note verse 20 with more proof in 2 Timothy 2:11-13 on how after denying Him, He still abides in former believers )).

Now for Paul to cite that lie for how that strong delusion will occur, Paul would cite that reproof towards that lie cited in verses 9-12 and that reproof can be found in verses 13-15 about the tradition taught of us as to when the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth was received which was at the calling of the gospel. That means the Holy Spirit cannot be received again at any other time in the life of a saved believer so they can test the spirits & know feeling any spirit coming over them bringing a sign, even a sign of tongues later in life or feeling that spirit in the worship place IS NOT the Holy Spirit.

Paul goes on to the 3rd chapter in 2 Thessalonians addressing those that have fallen away from the faith and are disorderly as they are in slain in the spirit, holy laughter movement, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade, another baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues or by a sign of tongues, and etc. where people fall backwards or fall down in a loss of self control, wherein God is not the author of confusion but of peace in ALL churches of the saints to KNOW that this extra phenomenon is not of Him at all, but as he relays the Lord's commandments to withdraw from them in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7, he points out to not treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers for they are still saved, but at risk of being denied by Him by that iniquity for denying Him in them as always filled; Matthew 9:17

So that is how to apply Paul's words in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter, as a warning to the believers & the churches in these latter days.

I am sure that this iniquity may very well unite the one world church in the coming great tribulation because this receiving of spirits in speaking nonsense gibberish supernatural tongues can be found in other religions, idolatries in the past, and the occults today.

That is why the real God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people in their native tongue as prophesied per 1 Corinthians 14:20-21 as it will neve mimic that supernatural tongue found in the world as they speak as the world speaks; 1 John 4:1-6 & Isaiah 8:19
We will disagree, the (Strong Delusion) will be the (False Prophet) performing false miracles, deceiving the world in receiving the mark and worshipping the image, those that are unrighteous that hate the truth, for this the (Strong Delusion) is sent (They Will Be Damed)

Your off topic of speaking in tongues isnt seen in the presented scripture, it appears to be a Baptist denominational teaching, start your own thread regarding the off topic speaking in "Tongues"

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 
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Hark

Well-known member
We will disagree, the (Strong Delusion) will be the (False Prophet) performing false miracles, deceiving the world in receiving the mark and worshipping the image, those that are unrighteous that hate the truth, for this the (Strong Delusion) is sent (They Will Be Damed)

Your off topic of speaking in tongues isnt seen in the presented scripture, it appears to be a Baptist denominational teaching, start your own thread regarding the off topic speaking in "Tongues"
That was just one of the examples cited of the falling away from the faith when they believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Now try applying the tradition that Paul taught us for how that tradition reproves the lie in yoru quote.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

If you cannot apply verses 13-15 as reproof in exposing what that lie is for why God would permit that strong delusion to occur because this has to deal with the falling away from the faith mentioned at the beginning of the chapter.

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, .........

Paul pointed out that this iniquity was already at work in his day..

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

So Paul pointed out this falling away from the faith in verses 9-12 but shared the reproof towards that lie so saved believers will not fall for it. What is that lie? That they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation. That is the only way to apply that reproof in verses 13-15 in exposing that lie to prevent those seeking that strong delusion to occur by believing that lie.

He goes on to address those saved believers in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 for why we are commanded by the Lord to withdraw from them that are "disorderly" and not walk after the tradition taught of us as those that are falling away from the faith in Paul's days BUT he points out that we do not treat them as the enemy, bit we withdraw t admonish them as brothers still for why they need His help to see & to depart from that iniquity..
 

101G

Well-known member
Not saying that any is right or wrong, but GOD himself tells us clearly why he sends strong delusions, supportive scripture,
Isaiah 66:4 "I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Hark

Well-known member
Not saying that any is right or wrong, but GOD himself tells us clearly why he sends strong delusions, supportive scripture,
Isaiah 66:4 "I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."

PICJAG, 101G.
Stands to reason that if a saved believer believes they can receive the Holy Spirit again for a sign, in spite of His word & warnings, then whatever delusion or phenomenon they seek after for believing that lie, God will permit it, like tongues for private use or slain in the spirit or holy laughter,
 

101G

Well-known member
Stands to reason that if a saved believer believes they can receive the Holy Spirit again for a sign, in spite of His word & warnings, then whatever delusion or phenomenon they seek after for believing that lie, God will permit it, like tongues for private use or slain in the spirit or holy laughter,
I cannot speak for God in that manner, nor the believer, OR (the None-Believer), . because ..... 2 Thessalonians 2:10 is clear, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Hark

Well-known member
I cannot speak for God in that manner, nor the believer, OR (the None-Believer), . because ..... 2 Thessalonians 2:10 is clear, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

PICJAG, 101G.
May I suggest the KJV for the actual message in His words?

I believe that is to be saved from what is coming on the earth. Luke 12:40-49 Luke 17:26-37 2 Peter 3:3-18

There is that one day when the Lord Jesus Christ will come with our gathering unto Him, but that day will not happened until the falling away of the faith in the latter days is to happen first. Those abiding in Him will be gathered as that gathering is to precede the great tribulation of the time when that man of sin will be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The OP connects the reference with the wicked one in Revelation but I connect the reference to Matthew 7:13-27 & Luke 13:24-30 & John 10:1-16 in regards to the falling away from the faith for why this damnation in being left behind is becoming that vessel unto dishonor in His House per 2 Timothy 2:15-26 *note verse 20 and 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 & Revelation 2:18-25

So the saved that went astray will be damned in becoming that vessel unto dishonor in His House, to be resurrected after the great tribulation, unless the Lord helps them to see their error and repent before the Bridegroom comes.

I am applying by His grace & by His help how 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15 should be applied towards so as to give the OP pause in how he is applying that towards Revelation, because the signs that causes the falling away from the faith isn't because of the wicked on calling great fire coming down from heaven in the sight of men, but for believing the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again.

There is no strong delusion when men see that fire comes down to the earth. How is that effect, the strong delusion, for the cause of believing what lie? Cause & effect has to be believing the lie for why God permit that strong delusion to occur and so if they believe they can receive the Holy Spirit again for a sign of tongue, or for slain in the spirit or for holy laughter or for "healing" as Matthew 7:21-23 would say such things can happen, and yet by falling down in them is why is not of Him per Matthew 7:24-27.

But I have shared enough in regards to that apostasy we are living in now for why the Bridegroom is coming to judge His House "first" per 1 Peter 4:17-19 which is really what the rapture is all about;

I shall leave that part alone now as I believe the OP can address Revelations event without applying 2 Thessalonians to it.
 

Hark

Well-known member
(2 Thessalonians) 2:9-12KJV
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(Revelation) 13:11-14KJV
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles
which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

(Revelation) 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
I do not believe what is happening per your reference of 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 is the same as what is happening in Revelations. In Revelations, the beast is not fooling any Christian by a lie for why God permit that strong delusion to occur but men in general in the world.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
That was just one of the examples cited of the falling away from the faith when they believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation.

Now try applying the tradition that Paul taught us for how that tradition reproves the lie in yoru quote.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

If you cannot apply verses 13-15 as reproof in exposing what that lie is for why God would permit that strong delusion to occur because this has to deal with the falling away from the faith mentioned at the beginning of the chapter.

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, .........

Paul pointed out that this iniquity was already at work in his day..

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

So Paul pointed out this falling away from the faith in verses 9-12 but shared the reproof towards that lie so saved believers will not fall for it. What is that lie? That they can receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation. That is the only way to apply that reproof in verses 13-15 in exposing that lie to prevent those seeking that strong delusion to occur by believing that lie.

He goes on to address those saved believers in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 for why we are commanded by the Lord to withdraw from them that are "disorderly" and not walk after the tradition taught of us as those that are falling away from the faith in Paul's days BUT he points out that we do not treat them as the enemy, bit we withdraw t admonish them as brothers still for why they need His help to see & to depart from that iniquity..
I disagree with your claim, the strong delusion has absolutely nothing to do with the church or a falling away apostasy

The delusion is sent to the wicked world that they might be damned, because they believed not the truth, and had pleasure in unrighteousness "Simple" as 101G has also stated

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
I do not believe what is happening per your reference of 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 is the same as what is happening in Revelations. In Revelations, the beast is not fooling any Christian by a lie for why God permit that strong delusion to occur but men in general in the world.
We will disagree

The strong delusion will be false miracles performed by the false prophet (The Lie) so the wicked will be deceived and receive the mark and worship the image of the beast, they will be eternally damned
 

101G

Well-known member
he OP connects the reference with the wicked one in Revelation but I connect the reference to Matthew 7:13-27 & Luke 13:24-30 & John 10:1-16 in regards to the falling away from the faith for why this damnation in being left behind is becoming that vessel unto dishonor in His House per 2 Timothy 2:15-26 *note verse 20 and 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 & Revelation 2:18-25

So the saved that went astray will be damned in becoming that vessel unto dishonor in His House, to be resurrected after the great tribulation, unless the Lord helps them to see their error and repent before the Bridegroom comes.
I cannot buy that assessment on the save, and here's why. 1 Corinthians 3:14 "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward."
1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Hark

Well-known member
I disagree with your claim, the strong delusion has absolutely nothing to do with the church or a falling away apostasy
Yet I point out that the topic began at verse 1 about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ & our gathering unto Him and how that day will not come until the falling away happens first, and then after that, the man of sin is revealed.

Then Paul cited that this iniquity was already at work as testifying to his day for the cause of that falling away from the faith in verse 7.

Then Paul continues to jump back & forth between 2 events, the falling away from the faith & that horrendous time when that son of perdition reveals himself during the great tribulation so when he says "Even him..." in verse 9 is referring to what is going on in his day back then that is prophesied to cause the falling away from the faith in droves in the latter days from verse 9 - 12.

So then Paul reminds believers of the tradition taught of us to expose that lie that believers are falling away from the faith by for why God permit that strong delusion to occur. Paul goes on to the next chapter talking about those falling away from the faith that walk no longer after the tradition taught of us from verses 1-7, but as he points out the Lord's commandments to withdraw, he says in verses 14-15 not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers.

So that is why I see verses 9-12 as addressing the falling away from the faith in the latter days that was happening even in Paul's days, but just not in droves, when you read in context of what and how Paul is writing this as led by the Spirit to do.


The delusion is sent to the wicked world that they might be damned, because they believed not the truth, and had pleasure in unrighteousness "Simple" as 101G has also stated

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Those who receive the mark of the beast to buy & sell to survive in the coming new world order after that fiery calamity takes out a third of the earth, are damned to the lake of fire, no matter what. So the mark of the beast is not mentioned here for why they are damned but for not believing in Him as that falling away from the faith is why they are damned in being left behind to become vessels unto dishonor in His House.

You cannot have a falling away from the faith as confirmed in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 unless they were of the faith. So these are saved believers left behind for not abiding in Him & His words per John 15:1-8 & Luke 12:40-49 & Revelation 2:18-25 as that fire comes on the 3rd of the earth Revelation 8:9 & Luke 17:26-37 and on some of those saints for not being ready that got left behind while others go thru the great tribulation.

But I can see your point of view if verses 9-12 was a double prophesy regarding what was happening to Paul in his day as the cause of the falling away from the faith in the latter days before the rapture event, AND to how sinners of the world will believe the beast & take the mark of the beast during the great tribulation. Double prophesy can be seen in the O.T., , so why not in the New Testament? If they believed in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God raised Him from the dead, they would not fall for the beast that did all those miracles.
 

Hark

Well-known member
We will disagree

The strong delusion will be false miracles performed by the false prophet (The Lie) so the wicked will be deceived and receive the mark and worship the image of the beast, they will be eternally damned
Well I have heard some application of those references in Revelation as suspecting that the beast is the Pope that got wounded in the head & got miraculously healed while another suspected that the beast rising from the sea was a nuclear submarine that holds the world in terror & submission.

But, I can accept that we agree to disagree since I can see your point of view if verses 9-12 was a double prophesy meant to be applied to the church falling away from the faith and also including the times during the great tribulation. Thank you for sharing.
 

Hark

Well-known member
I cannot buy that assessment on the save, and here's why. 1 Corinthians 3:14 "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward."
1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

PICJAG, 101G.
But verses 16-17 announces the consequence for defiling the temple of God which is a physical death which is why we should take heed how we build on that foundation as obviously the wood, stubble, and hay are the things that defile the temple of God.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

When you read the warning and the consequence to the church at Thyatira, then you can see how those left behind to die are still saved per 1 Corinthians 3:15 from your quote.

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is why even former believers, those deceived in having fallen away, and even carnal believers are called to depart from iniquity or else risk the damnation of being left behind to be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House because that is a damnation when those believers can never be that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in heaven per Luke 13:24-30.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

This is a faithful saying regarding how He still abides in former believers that deny Him for why those left behind are still saved.


2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Verse 10 is why we call former believers & professing believers that have fallen away from the faith & know it not as they become workers of iniquity just as carnal believers are in sowing to the flesh in reaping corruptions, so that hey may depart from iniquity with His help before the Bridegroom comes or else be left behind as damned in becoming vessels unto dishonor in His House.
 

101G

Well-known member
But verses 16-17 announces the consequence for defiling the temple of God which is a physical death which is why we should take heed how we build on that foundation as obviously the wood, stubble, and hay are the things that defile the temple of God.
this is my POINT, listen, 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

the fire is God's Word of TRUTH, which is for obedience, for the save is in obediance to God, only the UNSAVE is in disobedience.

asthe scriptures states, 1 John 5:16 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."1 John 5:17 "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."

for we have the SURE mercies of of David, Hebrews 8:12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

this is God word from, Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:" Jeremiah 31:32 "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:" Jeremiah 31:33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

this is the covenant I'm under, a covenant of LIFE, even if I don't everything about God, but if I confess with my mouth, and believe in my Heart that God raised him from the dead, and is baptized I'm saved.

now I might suffer from loss in not knowing everything about God, but not LOST from salvation in God.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Hark

Well-known member
this is my POINT, listen, 1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

the fire is God's Word of TRUTH, which is for obedience, for the save is in obediance to God, only the UNSAVE is in disobedience.

asthe scriptures states, 1 John 5:16 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it."1 John 5:17 "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."

for we have the SURE mercies of of David, Hebrews 8:12 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more."

this is God word from, Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:" Jeremiah 31:32 "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:" Jeremiah 31:33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

this is the covenant I'm under, a covenant of LIFE, even if I don't everything about God, but if I confess with my mouth, and believe in my Heart that God raised him from the dead, and is baptized I'm saved.

now I might suffer from loss in not knowing everything about God, but not LOST from salvation in God.

PICJAG, 101G.
Discern with Him how God will divide His House by the vessels therein.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So the vessels unto dishonor are those that did not depart from iniquity when the Bridegroom comes, but there can be no fellowship at the Marriage Supper table in Heaven with the vessels unto dishonor that did not depart from iniquity.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Many believers thinks those left behind were never saved, but not so when you read 2 Timothy 2:18-21 in regards to not departing from works of iniquity which any iniquity is denying Him since one does not have to verbally deny Him; they can deny Him by their works.

Titus 1:5 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Hence disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper in heaven, bt still saved to be resurrected after the great tribulation. This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from, the vessels of earth and wood, that are in His House.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
You cannot have a falling away from the faith as confirmed in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 unless they were of the faith. So these are saved believers left behind for not abiding in Him & His words per John 15:1-8 & Luke 12:40-49 & Revelation 2:18-25 as that fire comes on the 3rd of the earth Revelation 8:9 & Luke 17:26-37 and on some of those saints for not being ready that got left behind while others go thru the great tribulation.

But I can see your point of view if verses 9-12 was a double prophesy regarding what was happening to Paul in his day as the cause of the falling away from the faith in the latter days before the rapture event, AND to how sinners of the world will believe the beast & take the mark of the beast during the great tribulation. Double prophesy can be seen in the O.T., , so why not in the New Testament? If they believed in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God raised Him from the dead, they would not fall for the beast that did all those miracles.
Those Falling Away Were Never (Sealed Believers) The Seal Is To The Day Of Redemption, Eternal Security

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
 

101G

Well-known member
Discern with Him how God will divide His House by the vessels therein.
First thanks for the reply, second, Jesus the Son is over his "OWN" house which we we are in, and in his house there is no iniquity, nor any Law of condemnation,

THE HOUSE OF CHRIST: Hebrews 3:1 "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;" Hebrews 3:2 "Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house." Hebrews 3:3 "For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house." Hebrews 3:4 "For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God." Hebrews 3:5 "And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;" Hebrews 3:6 "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." Hebrews 3:7 "Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,"Hebrews 3:8 "Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:"

so is our HEARTS HARDEN? no of course not... WHY? answer, Ezekiel 11:19 "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:" Jeremiah 24:7 "And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart."
BINGO,

NOW, his HOUSE is a HOUSE of RIGHTEOUSNESS, lets see it. 1 Timothy 1:9 "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," 1 Timothy 1:10 "For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;"
WHY is the Law not made for a RIGHTEOUS MAN?, Romans 4:15 "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." hello, hello.

so our RIGHTEOUSNESS is in him, and there is no condemnation of any law, WHY, listen to Hebrews again, "Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:" why is this a none application to us who are in Christ Jesus the believer? answer, Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

AND HOW DO GOD "Forgive our sins and iniquity? answer, 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." ....... READ THAT AGAIN, confess and forget it.
1 John 1:10 "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

so don't be decieved and say you cannot sin, (if you're alive in this world). but again as Heprew states, Hebrews 3:1 "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;"

we profess JESUS the Christ, and if we sin, we have an advocate. 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"
BINGO. thank God for the NEW TESTAMENT. away with the OLD and IN with the NEW .... THAK YOU LORD JESUS..

see Hank, when one grow up, one act different, scripture, 1 Corinthians 13:11 "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

and when you think you're too big for your pants, or ..... dresses, as with them in the wilderness, well listen UP,

Hebrews 12:5 "And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:" Hebrews 12:6 "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth." Hebrews 12:7 "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?" Hebrews 12:8 "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." STOP, READ THAT AGAIN. Hebrews 12:9 "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" (even if we suffer LOST), Hebrews 12:10 "For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness." Hebrews 12:11 "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." Hebrews 12:12 "Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;" Hebrews 12:13 "And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed." Hebrews 12:14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

THIS IS WHY WE HAVE A "FATHER", until we become perfect in christ JESUS, else then then we're under, Galatians 4:1 "Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;" Galatians 4:2 "But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father." Galatians 4:3 "Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:" READ THAT VERSE AGAIN.

THIS IS WHY WE HAVE A FIVE FOLD MINISTRY, Ephesians 4:11 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Ephesians 4:12 "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" Ephesians 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Ephesians 4:14 "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;" Ephesians 4:15 "But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:"

Conclusion, Hank, whay do you think God called Israel.... "CHILDREN" .... just as he do us? answer, Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."

see, we haven't made it yet, he is not finish with us ... yet. LISTEN TO THE Apostle, Philippians 3:13 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before," Philippians 3:14 "I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.".

IN HIM I'M PERFECT, AND NOT OF MYSELF. FOR HE IS MY RIGHTEOUSNESS, and NOT of Myself.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Hark

Well-known member
Those Falling Away Were Never (Sealed Believers) The Seal Is To The Day Of Redemption, Eternal Security

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Thank you for sharing.

However I point out 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 in how our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit, hence sealed.

1 Corinthians 3:10-17 warns believers how they build on that foundation; obviously the wood, stubble, and hay are the offenses that will be burned off, as the consequence for not departing from iniquity is to die a physical death in that day when God judges His House per each believer.

Revelation 2:18-25 confirms this casting out into the bed of the coming great tribulation for not repenting.

Luke 12:40-49 warns believers of the consequence for not being ready as they will be cut off & left in the world with that fire coming on the earth.

This said God's judgment of fire on the earth was be warned by Peter in 2 Peter 3:3-18 & John in Revelation 8:9

John 15:1-8 noting verse 6 is Jesus warning His disciples that when they stop abiding in Him, they will be cut off,.. unless they repent with His help, of course before the Bridegroom comes.

That is why those left behind still have His seal; even former believers; for even though He denies them for denying Him verbally or by their works, He still abides. That is why we are to call even former believers to repent so the too can obtain the eternal glory that cmes with our salvation and that is to be received by the Bridegroom as vessels unto honor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Verse 20 testifies that those who do not depart from iniquity, will become vessels unto dishonor in Hs House; this is a damnation for once left behind from the Marriage Supper, they can never be that vessel unto honor in His House, BUT they are in His House.
 
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