The succession of popes and their questionable behaviour

RayneBeau

Well-known member
you keep missing the point:
Following Scripture's requirement for salvation is completely different than having non-scriptural requirements for salvation (and being infallibly proclaimed!)

Much of Matthew 23 applies to the Catholic Church
Yes! Matt. 23 certainly does apply to the RCC, because the Scribes and the Pharisee's in Jesus' day were in possession of the law, so in a sense they were sitting on Moses' seat. The law could be faithfully given to the people by the Scribes and Pharisees, or it could be withheld from them - the way to heaven was opened to them, or closed to them. So, in the failure of the Scribes and the Pharisees to give the law to the people they were shutting the kingdom of heaven against men, not literally of course but figuratively they were.
 

mica

Well-known member
1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.
if catholics had a love for God above all else, they would be born again. They'd believe His word, not that of man.

Venial sins - this is from an article at https://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2020/03/how-can-i-be-forgiven-from-venial-sins.html: "Thus, we learn that the Sacraments, such as receiving Holy Communion, remit venial sin, although we of course may never receive Holy Communion without prior Sacramental Confession for mortal sin. We also learn that the Confiteor, the Our Father, and blessing ourselves with Holy Water all remit venial sin."
none of that is found in scripture.

This from Jimmy Akin's blog at http://jimmyakin.com/can-protestants-go-to-confession:

"Confession is one of three sacraments which canon 844 allows non-Catholics to receive in specified circumstances:
“844:3 Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they ask on their own for the sacraments are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches which, in the judgment of the Apostolic See, are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned.
“844:4 If the danger of death is present or other grave necessity, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or the national conference of bishops, Catholic ministers may licitly administer these sacraments to other Christians who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community, and on their own ask for it, provided they manifest Catholic faith in these sacraments and are properly disposed.”
and all he can do is parrot what is taught by men - the RCC.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
And if they had? This was an old topic but the seal of confession shouldn't hide criminal activity. Priests or anyone else for that matter, should certainly seek forgiveness but at the same time if a crime has been committed the police should be called. I wonder if this is the reason most mobsters are portrayed as catholic? "Forgive me father i whacked someone today, he sleeps with the fishes." "Say 5 hail marys for your penance." Catholics should see a problem here.
I always thought it was weird that the priest would give the penitent prayers to say as their "penance" for the sins they confessed. When did Jesus ever use prayer as a punishment for sin? Interestingly enough - were you ever taught, or did you ever know, that Roman Catholic priests could dole out "spiritual" penances, or "bodily" penances? And also, did you know that the RCC teaches that patient acceptance of trials or humiliation sent by God, is expiatory, and that the practice of charity toward others is a powerful satisfaction for our lack of charity towards God.
 

balshan

Well-known member
I always thought it was weird that the priest would give the penitent prayers to say as their "penance" for the sins they confessed. When did Jesus ever use prayer as a punishment for sin? Interestingly enough - were you ever taught, or did you ever know, that Roman Catholic priests could dole out "spiritual" penances, or "bodily" penances? And also, did you know that the RCC teaches that patient acceptance of trials or humiliation sent by God, is expiatory, and that the practice of charity toward others is a powerful satisfaction for our lack of charity towards God.
Non made an interesting point about the seal of confession and how it shouldn't hide criminal activity. You made a point about prayer. I have never known anyone who was given any other penance than prayer or in some cases read the bible. The reading the bible was only in the McArdle statement. Why are people not given the penance to repair the harm.

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."

I mean looking at non's example how can repair the harm of killing someone? How can abusers repair the harm done to children? They would take themselves to the police and report themselves.

But the penance is just prayer maybe they get twenty Hail Marys and Our Fathers instead of ten or five.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called "perfect" (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

Venial sins - this is from an article at https://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2020/03/how-can-i-be-forgiven-from-venial-sins.html: "Thus, we learn that the Sacraments, such as receiving Holy Communion, remit venial sin, although we of course may never receive Holy Communion without prior Sacramental Confession for mortal sin. We also learn that the Confiteor, the Our Father, and blessing ourselves with Holy Water all remit venial sin."

This from Jimmy Akin's blog at http://jimmyakin.com/can-protestants-go-to-confession:

"Confession is one of three sacraments which canon 844 allows non-Catholics to receive in specified circumstances:
“844:3 Catholic ministers may licitly administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick to members of the oriental churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they ask on their own for the sacraments are properly disposed. This holds also for members of other churches which, in the judgment of the Apostolic See, are in the same condition as the oriental churches as far as these sacraments are concerned.
“844:4 If the danger of death is present or other grave necessity, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or the national conference of bishops, Catholic ministers may licitly administer these sacraments to other Christians who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community, and on their own ask for it, provided they manifest Catholic faith in these sacraments and are properly disposed.”
In the Scripture verses in 1 John 5: 16-17 John does not use the RCC terms of mortal and venial sins, but he does seem to use similar concepts. What are your thoughts on that? Do those verses support the teaching of the RCC?
 

mica

Well-known member
Non made an interesting point about the seal of confession and how it shouldn't hide criminal activity. You made a point about prayer. I have never known anyone who was given any other penance than prayer or in some cases read the bible. The reading the bible was only in the McArdle statement. Why are people not given the penance to repair the harm.

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."

I mean looking at non's example how can repair the harm of killing someone? How can abusers repair the harm done to children? They would take themselves to the police and report themselves.

But the penance is just prayer maybe they get twenty Hail Marys and Our Fathers instead of ten or five.
If they actually believed that they wouldn't be doing things, penance, prayers etc to pay for their own sin.

Those 'things' don't 'allow ' us to become co-heirs with Christ. We become co - heirs when we're born again. the RCC added those 'things' to replace being born again.
 

balshan

Well-known member
If they actually believed that they wouldn't be doing things, penance, prayers etc to pay for their own sin.

Those 'things' don't 'allow ' us to become co-heirs with Christ. We become co - heirs when we're born again. the RCC added those 'things' to replace being born again.
They would do things for the people they have harmed. It doesn't happen at all. It really was a waste of ink to put it in the catechism and the priest never seem to ensure that it happens.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
In the Scripture verses in 1 John 5: 16-17 John does not use the RCC terms of mortal and venial sins, but he does seem to use similar concepts. What are your thoughts on that? Do those verses support the teaching of the RCC?
John says that some sins are "unto death" - πρὸς θάνατον - which you could call "mortal" or "deadly" sins (though it's the concept that's important, not the name), while some are not. I think John does distinguish between (at least) two types of sin here or more correctly two types of sinful effects because technically "mortal sins" aren't just about what is done (the object) but also the intention, circumstance and knowledge.
 

mica

Well-known member
John says that some sins are "unto death" - πρὸς θάνατον - which you could call "mortal" or "deadly" sins (though it's the concept that's important, not the name), while some are not. I think John does distinguish between (at least) two types of sin here or more correctly two types of sinful effects because technically "mortal sins" aren't just about what is done (the object) but also the intention, circumstance and knowledge.
I don't think that's about what the RCC calls 'mortal sin'. think unbelief / blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
I don't think that's about what the RCC calls 'mortal sin'. think unbelief / blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
I suppose it could include some kind of sin related to unbelief but John is discussing sins among Christians ("If anyone sees his brother..."). The verses are also written in a way that suggest such a sin ("leading unto death") is more than one, that is, not just this kind of sin (e.g. adultery).
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
John says that some sins are "unto death" - πρὸς θάνατον - which you could call "mortal" or "deadly" sins (though it's the concept that's important, not the name), while some are not. I think John does distinguish between (at least) two types of sin here or more correctly two types of sinful effects because technically "mortal sins" aren't just about what is done (the object) but also the intention, circumstance and knowledge.
Okay, but again, do those verses in 1 John support the teaching of the RCC that for the Christian there is the possibility of committing sin which is mortal, that is, which results in the loss of eternal life and results in eternal death?
 

mica

Well-known member
I suppose it could include some kind of sin related to unbelief but John is discussing sins among Christians ("If anyone sees his brother..."). The verses are also written in a way that suggest such a sin ("leading unto death") is more than one, that is, not just this kind of sin (e.g. adultery).
you suppose... think.... possibly, could be... who knows... so you can just make it up to say what you want it to say.... if you believe God's word is truth, why do you rewrite it / change it?

some kind of sin related to UNBELIEF?

Acts 5 Ananias and Sapphira
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
you suppose... think.... possibly, could be... who knows... so you can just make it up to say what you want it to say.... if you believe God's word is truth, why do you rewrite it / change it?

some kind of sin related to UNBELIEF?

Acts 5 Ananias and Sapphira
and John was there
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
I suppose it could include some kind of sin related to unbelief but John is discussing sins among Christians ("If anyone sees his brother..."). The verses are also written in a way that suggest such a sin ("leading unto death") is more than one, that is, not just this kind of sin (e.g. adultery).
Within this epistle, John uses the term "brother" in the broad sense of someone who makes a profession of being a Christian. The presence of true faith is thereby assumed, but not guaranteed. Just like if a "brother" claims to be a Christian, if his life is characterized by hatred, he cannot be a true Christian. He does not have eternal life abiding in him. On the other hand, a genuine Christian is one who possesses eternal life that can never be lost.... "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;. . . . Those who become Christians can never perish. Eternal life is eternal; it is permanent.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Okay, but again, do those verses in 1 John support the teaching of the RCC that for the Christian there is the possibility of committing sin which is mortal, that is, which results in the loss of eternal life and results in eternal death?
Why not? It differentiates between at least two different types of sins, one which kills (the soul) and one which doesn't. It also seems in accordance to reason and the OT that some sins are very serious indeed while others are not. Now, yes, all sin is sin, but it doesn't follow that all sin affects someone in the same way.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
you suppose... think.... possibly, could be... who knows... so you can just make it up to say what you want it to say.... if you believe God's word is truth, why do you rewrite it / change it?

some kind of sin related to UNBELIEF?

Acts 5 Ananias and Sapphira
Your claim was that mortal sin was about unbelief but it doesn't seem the passage is talking about that. So, I said I suppose it could be related to unbelief because it would have to be a specific kind of sin rather than general unbelief.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Within this epistle, John uses the term "brother" in the broad sense of someone who makes a profession of being a Christian. The presence of true faith is thereby assumed, but not guaranteed. Just like if a "brother" claims to be a Christian, if his life is characterized by hatred, he cannot be a true Christian. He does not have eternal life abiding in him. On the other hand, a genuine Christian is one who possesses eternal life that can never be lost.... "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;. . . . Those who become Christians can never perish. Eternal life is eternal; it is permanent.
Okay, even if we accept that, how does that change the discussion of mortal and venial sins? Is the claim that true Christians can never commit mortal sins?
 

mica

Well-known member
Your claim was that mortal sin was about unbelief but it doesn't seem the passage is talking about that. So, I said I suppose it could be related to unbelief because it would have to be a specific kind of sin rather than general unbelief.
you don't think unbelief is mortal to the soul?
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
I suppose it could include some kind of sin related to unbelief but John is discussing sins among Christians ("If anyone sees his brother..."). The verses are also written in a way that suggest such a sin ("leading unto death") is more than one, that is, not just this kind of sin (e.g. adultery).
In 1 John 3: 9, my thinking on this is that John is talking about those who, though they may have professed Christ, have never genuinely experienced new birth. I think that is one big reason for Paul's letter is to warn those true believers against those who were deceivers and false teachers. they claimed to be Christians but their lives were inconsistent with their profession. They walked in darkness; they did not keep the commandments of God; they loved the world; they lived in unrighteousness and sin; they did not love; and they denied basic truths about the person of our Lord Jesus Christ. I think these men knew the truth, but they had either completely rejected it and gone into apostasy or embraced a life-style of open and deliberate sin. Those are the ones that John was probably referring to when he speaks of certain individuals committing "sin unto death."
 
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