The succession of popes and their questionable behaviour

R

Rotgold

Guest
Simple. The claim isn't that popes are saints, or that bishops are saints, or that priests are saints, or that the laity are saints. The only person who makes us holy is Christ Jesus.

The claim is that there is apostolic succession. Bad popes don't negate that.

As for the popes from the ummm not-so-unbiased site you linked, I'd have some questions: how does the election of some popes by prostitutes (e.g. Anastasius III - though I couldn't find for this claim) make the person a bad pope?; how is Pius IX guilty of kidnapping and "megalomania"?; the claim that some of those popes listed are "genocidal maniacs" is somewhat hard to sustain; and I love "greed and avarice" too numerous to list. This isn't serious historical evidence by a long shot. Plus, if the author could only list 10 or so out of over 250 popes, that's not such a bad run.

Regardless, no one is stating that popes are perfect and sinless.

Good points! :)
 

ramcam2

Member
In 1 John 3: 9, my thinking on this is that John is talking about those who, though they may have professed Christ, have never genuinely experienced new birth. I think that is one big reason for Paul's letter is to warn those true believers against those who were deceivers and false teachers. they claimed to be Christians but their lives were inconsistent with their profession. They walked in darkness; they did not keep the commandments of God; they loved the world; they lived in unrighteousness and sin; they did not love; and they denied basic truths about the person of our Lord Jesus Christ. I think these men knew the truth, but they had either completely rejected it and gone into apostasy or embraced a life-style of open and deliberate sin. Those are the ones that John was probably referring to when he speaks of certain individuals committing "sin unto death."
1john is all about the life of the christian in mortal sin and venial sin or as the bible calls it, sin unto death and sin not unto death. in 1john1: 8-9, he talks of 'little sins' that one commits (venial sins). 1 John 3:8–9 deals with life in mortal sin. in 1john5: 16-17, he basically defines mortal sin and that prayers in no way can help because the offender is cut off from the life of grace.
 

balshan

Well-known member
1john is all about the life of the christian in mortal sin and venial sin or as the bible calls it, sin unto death and sin not unto death. in 1john1: 8-9, he talks of 'little sins' that one commits (venial sins). 1 John 3:8–9 deals with life in mortal sin. in 1john5: 16-17, he basically defines mortal sin and that prayers in no way can help because the offender is cut off from the life of grace.
1 John 1:8-9

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 3:8-9

8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 5:16-17

16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Nope nothing about venial or mortal sins and there is only one sin that leads to death. Do you know which sin that is?
 

ramcam2

Member
1 John 1:8-9

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 3:8-9

8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 5:16-17

16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Nope nothing about venial or mortal sins and there is only one sin that leads to death. Do you know which sin that is?
do you agree that the bible says there is sin that does not lead to death and sin that leads to death... yes or no?
 

balshan

Well-known member
do you agree that the bible says there is sin that does not lead to death and sin that leads to death... yes or no?
What is the sin that leads to death? There is only one. isn't there?

1 John 5:
17 all wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death
18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

Rom 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

acts 5:1-10

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

Matt 12:31=32

Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

It seems all sin leads to death unless forgiven, the only sin that is not forgiven is blasphemy against the spirit.
 

ramcam2

Member
What is the sin that leads to death? There is only one. isn't there?

1 John 5:
17 all wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death
18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

Rom 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

acts 5:1-10

Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

Matt 12:31=32

Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

It seems all sin leads to death unless forgiven, the only sin that is not forgiven is blasphemy against the spirit.
here are more verses...
matt15:19... Our Lord here teaches that there are “least commandments” a person can break and even teach others to do so yet still remain “in the kingdom of heaven.” This is a good definition of venial sin.
matt5:22... if we do not repent, we end in hell. this refers to mortal sins.

but in matt12:32. I beg to disagree with your interpretation. This verse implies that there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life and some that cannot to a people who already believed it to be so. This is the faith and practice of the jews before the time of christ whether one accepts the canonicity of I and II Maccabees. This is looking in a historical perspective. The Jews believed there were some sins that could be forgiven in the next life (analogous to what Catholics call venial sins), and that there were some sins that could not be so forgiven (analogous to what Catholics call mortal sins).
 

balshan

Well-known member
here are more verses...
matt15:19... Our Lord here teaches that there are “least commandments” a person can break and even teach others to do so yet still remain “in the kingdom of heaven.” This is a good definition of venial sin.
matt5:22... if we do not repent, we end in hell. this refers to mortal sins.

but in matt12:32. I beg to disagree with your interpretation. This verse implies that there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life and some that cannot to a people who already believed it to be so. This is the faith and practice of the jews before the time of christ whether one accepts the canonicity of I and II Maccabees. This is looking in a historical perspective. The Jews believed there were some sins that could be forgiven in the next life (analogous to what Catholics call venial sins), and that there were some sins that could not be so forgiven (analogous to what Catholics call mortal sins).
Not sure what you are talking about.

Matt 15:19 teaches no such thing, it says:

For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

15:20

These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

I think you have totally misrepresented Matt 15:19 Nothing at all about remaining in the kingdom at all.

Nowhere does Matt 12:32 indicate a venial sin, seriously you are really stretching the truth.

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

So by mortal sins you are claiming that murders, adulterers, pedophile priests cannot be forgiven, even if they repent. That is not what Matt is saying at all. No such things as mortal and venial sins. There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven ever. Of course that may be your priests as they lied when going to confession, they must have because they knew the sin was grave because they went to confession. Then they just went out and did it again.
 

ramcam2

Member
Not sure what you are talking about.

Matt 15:19 teaches no such thing, it says:

For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

15:20

These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

I think you have totally misrepresented Matt 15:19 Nothing at all about remaining in the kingdom at all.

Nowhere does Matt 12:32 indicate a venial sin, seriously you are really stretching the truth.

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

So by mortal sins you are claiming that murders, adulterers, pedophile priests cannot be forgiven, even if they repent. That is not what Matt is saying at all. No such things as mortal and venial sins. There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven ever. Of course that may be your priests as they lied when going to confession, they must have because they knew the sin was grave because they went to confession. Then they just went out and did it again.
sorry for the error, it is suppose to be matthew5 :19. Whoever, then, sets aside one of these commandments, though it were the least, and teaches men to do the like, will be of least account in the kingdom of heaven; but the man who keeps them and teaches others to keep them will be accounted in the kingdom of heaven as the greatest.
 

balshan

Well-known member
sorry for the error, it is suppose to be matthew5 :19. Whoever, then, sets aside one of these commandments, though it were the least, and teaches men to do the like, will be of least account in the kingdom of heaven; but the man who keeps them and teaches others to keep them will be accounted in the kingdom of heaven as the greatest.
No problems we are all human. So not your institution, as it teaches false doctrines and sets aside a heap of commandments by modifying them, changing names and allowing evil to grow.
 

mica

Well-known member
jonathan_hili said:
Simple. The claim isn't that popes are saints, or that bishops are saints, or that priests are saints, or that the laity are saints. The only person who makes us holy is Christ Jesus.
The claim is that there is apostolic succession. Bad popes don't negate that.

As for the popes from the ummm not-so-unbiased site you linked, I'd have some questions: how does the election of some popes by prostitutes (e.g. Anastasius III - though I couldn't find for this claim) make the person a bad pope?; how is Pius IX guilty of kidnapping and "megalomania"?; the claim that some of those popes listed are "genocidal maniacs" is somewhat hard to sustain; and I love "greed and avarice" too numerous to list.
neither are the sites used by catholics to support their religion.

This isn't serious historical evidence by a long shot. Plus, if the author could only list 10 or so out of over 250 popes, that's not such a bad run.

Regardless, no one is stating that popes are perfect and sinless.
neither is the majority of historical evidence posted by catholics regarding the RCC.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
here are more verses...
matt15:19... Our Lord here teaches that there are “least commandments” a person can break and even teach others to do so yet still remain “in the kingdom of heaven.” This is a good definition of venial sin.
matt5:22... if we do not repent, we end in hell. this refers to mortal sins.

but in matt12:32. I beg to disagree with your interpretation. This verse implies that there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life and some that cannot to a people who already believed it to be so. This is the faith and practice of the jews before the time of christ whether one accepts the canonicity of I and II Maccabees. This is looking in a historical perspective. The Jews believed there were some sins that could be forgiven in the next life (analogous to what Catholics call venial sins), and that there were some sins that could not be so forgiven (analogous to what Catholics call mortal sins).
Your point is mute. Who cares what the Jews believed? They also believed that Jesus was a lunatic and a sinner and cried out for Him to be put to death!
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
1john is all about the life of the christian in mortal sin and venial sin or as the bible calls it, sin unto death and sin not unto death. in 1john1: 8-9, he talks of 'little sins' that one commits (venial sins). 1 John 3:8–9 deals with life in mortal sin. in 1john5: 16-17, he basically defines mortal sin and that prayers in no way can help because the offender is cut off from the life of grace.
The problem with this thinking and teaching is that if a Roman Catholic person grows up believing what he was taught, that most of his sins have been venial sins, he may then view himself as basically a good person who may not see himself as being in dire need of a Savior. Even if that Roman Catholic does commit what the RCC labels as a mortal sin, the solution is a simple one. It involves a quick trip to an RC priest to participate in what the RCC calls the 'sacrament of Penance. Easy enough, huh? The slate is wiped clean all over again. Is this what Jesus preached?
Ram - are you aware of the fact that there is not one single reference in the Holy Bible to "mortal sins" and/ or "venial sins"?
 

ramcam2

Member
Your point is mute. Who cares what the Jews believed? They also believed that Jesus was a lunatic and a sinner and cried out for Him to be put to death!
you have your freewill to decide if you believe and give importance to the old testament or not.
 

ramcam2

Member
The problem with this thinking and teaching is that if a Roman Catholic person grows up believing what he was taught, that most of his sins have been venial sins, he may then view himself as basically a good person who may not see himself as being in dire need of a Savior. Even if that Roman Catholic does commit what the RCC labels as a mortal sin, the solution is a simple one. It involves a quick trip to an RC priest to participate in what the RCC calls the 'sacrament of Penance. Easy enough, huh? The slate is wiped clean all over again. Is this what Jesus preached?
Ram - are you aware of the fact that there is not one single reference in the Holy Bible to "mortal sins" and/ or "venial sins"?
not as simple as in protestantism where you ask for forgiveness directly to god. just you and god, no need for a third party. your slate is clean all over again. what is more easier than this?
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
here are more verses...
matt15:19... Our Lord here teaches that there are “least commandments” a person can break and even teach others to do so yet still remain “in the kingdom of heaven.” This is a good definition of venial sin.
matt5:22... if we do not repent, we end in hell. this refers to mortal sins.

but in matt12:32. I beg to disagree with your interpretation. This verse implies that there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life and some that cannot to a people who already believed it to be so. This is the faith and practice of the jews before the time of christ whether one accepts the canonicity of I and II Maccabees. This is looking in a historical perspective. The Jews believed there were some sins that could be forgiven in the next life (analogous to what Catholics call venial sins), and that there were some sins that could not be so forgiven (analogous to what Catholics call mortal sins).
Again, it matters not what the Jews believed. You need to turn your attention to the seriousness of man's sin problem which comes into clear focus in the words of Jesus Christ. He taught that as a result of the fall humans are evil and that Man is capable of great wickedness. Moreover, He said that man is utterly lost, that he is a sinner and that he is in need of repentance before a holy God, and that all people are indebted to and guilty before God.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
you have your freewill to decide if you believe and give importance to the old testament or not.
Was there ever any doubt as to my freewill to decide anything? :rolleyes:

Don't Jesus' words make it clear to you that both your inner thoughts and external acts makes a person guilty? Matthew taught that from within the human heart comes evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, envy, slander, arrogance, and folly. Moreover, he affirmed that God is aware of every person's sins, both external acts and inner thoughts; nothing escapes His notice.
 

ramcam2

Member
Was there ever any doubt as to my freewill to decide anything? :rolleyes:

Don't Jesus' words make it clear to you that both your inner thoughts and external acts makes a person guilty? Matthew taught that from within the human heart comes evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, envy, slander, arrogance, and folly. Moreover, he affirmed that God is aware of every person's sins, both external acts and inner thoughts; nothing escapes His notice.
and the bible says that there sins that lead to death and there are sins that do not lead to death.
 
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