The succession of popes and their questionable behaviour

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Well, what it doesn't mean is confession to a priest. There is no auricular confession or a ministerial priesthood in the n.t. So what does it mean? Forgiveness comes through God. What Jesus did was pay the ransom for our sin. The word in Mark 10:45 means to pay a ransom, break the chains, loose the bonds. That only happens when one believes in Jesus as their savior. This is the purpose of the great commission in taking the gospel to the world. In the preaching of the gospel people either believe it and receive His forgiveness or they don't. If they do, their certificate of debt is nailed to the cross i.e. their sins are atoned for; Col 2:14. Their sins are taken by Jesus and He gives them His righteousness; 2 Cor 5:21. We, who share the gospel get the privilege of telling that person their sins are forgiven. Not that we did anything, but God. Here is Robertson on John 20:23

"Are retained (κεκρατηντα). Perfect passive indicative of κρατεω. The power to forgive sin belongs only to God, but Jesus claimed to have this power and right (Mr 2:5-7). What he commits to the disciples and to us is the power and privilege of giving assurance of the forgiveness of sins by God by correctly announcing the terms of forgiveness. There is no proof that he actually transferred to the apostles or their successors the power in and of themselves to forgive sins. In Matt 16:19; Matt 18:18 we have a similar use of the rabbinical metaphor of binding and loosing by proclaiming and teaching. Jesus put into the hands of Peter and of all believers the keys of the Kingdom which we should use to open the door for those who wish to enter. This glorious promise applies to all believers who will tell the story of Christ's love for men."

Robertson's Word Pictures

But in order to even be able to proclaim such a thing, the one sharing the gospel has to have a pure, true gospel in the first place. If your gospel is wrong, and romes is, then telling someone their sins are forgiven is simply lip service. Its meaningless to tell someone their sins are gone when you don't have the authority or the right gospel. One reason rc confession is such a useless thing to do.
Nobody is arguing that the apostles and their successors had power in and of themselves to forgive sins - this is a ministry from God and through God. It is a ministry because people come to them to confess their sins; it is a ministry of healing. After all, how could the disciples forgive or retain sins if they had not heard them?

I think Paul puts it beautifully if 2 Corinthians 5:
[18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
[19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
[20] So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

When someone goes to confession in the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican or Lutheran Churches, the minister doesn't think they have the power to forgive sins of their own accord but because of the gracious ministry given by God. As Matthew writes: he has given such authority (to forgive sins) to men (Matt 9:8).

I think this is going to be a continual stumbling block between certain evangelicals/Protestants and others within the Church in seeing God and the Church in two opposite (?) ways:
(1) Where any authority or spiritual power given to the Church or working through people is seen as taking away from God's glory.
(2) Where any authority or spiritual power given to the Church or working through people is seen as giving God greater glory as mediating His saving work through us.

Jesus promised his followers that they would do greater works than he (John 14:12) because he has gone to heaven, that is, Jesus is giving us as his Body a role to play in salvation history. This is a beautiful thing for which we should praise God.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Like mica said, it doesn't mean anyone confesses to a priest for absolution. Sometimes one has to look deeper at the meaning of words and structure of sentences. Since we know only God can forgive (absolve/remove) sin when someone sees a verse like John 20:23 which appears to contradict that, some deeper study should be warranted. It's dangerous to always take scripture at face value when it was written in languages with words that don't always translate well in English. The meaning can be totally different than at first glance.

The words "have been forgiven" is the single Greek word aphiami. It is the perfect passive. The perfect tense is "I have been" which designates an action that occurs in the past and continues into the present. The verse should translate more like: If you forgive the sins of anyone they are (some translations say "have been") forgiven [because of their faith]; if you retain the sins of anyone, they are retained [and remain unforgiven because of their unbelief].”

Look at the previous verses, Jesus was sending them out "As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you." He gave them the Holy Spirit. Their job was to proclaim Christ and let people know that their sins have been forgiven for those who believe and they are not for those who don't believe - John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

We are never told to confess to a priest (as in RCC priest which didn't exist then anyway) for absolution (for lack of a better word).
Thanks for your thoughtful response, Illini.

A couple of things. Doesn't the past perfect tense denote an action that is completed not that "occurs in the past and continues into the present" (is that the past aorist tense?). I agree that: "If you forgive sins of anyone, they have been forgiven; if you retain sins of anyone, they have been retained", is a good translation. However, isn't "because of their faith/unbelief" a theological interpolation and not actually in the text? Also, the verb directed to the disciples is in the subjunctive, which means they have the option of forgiving/not forgiving; however, if it's just about faith, how can they possibly have the option? They don't control the faith of people.

I see what you mean about the disciples going out to do the ministry of Jesus. But Jesus forgave sins. Furthermore, the pericope doesn't specifically mention preaching, just going out as Jesus did.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
But the Phony Roman Catholic Claim IS, however, that the "Pope" is: "The Vicar of Christ on earth" and YOU CLAIM that Jesus' "Vicar" can be openly EVIL.

And you actually WONDER why we don't take your Roman Catholic Church Corp. seriously???
I claim that any human being can be openly evil. The kings of God's kingdom - even David himself, a man after God's own heart - was openly evil. This does not hinder the plan and work of God, for He works through human evil to accomplish His good will.
 

Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
I claim that any human being can be openly evil. The kings of God's kingdom - even David himself, a man after God's own heart - was openly evil. This does not hinder the plan and work of God, for He works through human evil to accomplish His good will.
Even the "Vicar of Christ"!!??. Right now you've got a "Vicar of Christ that's leading your "Religious Corporation" into Non-Christian Universalism!!! And You're gonna follow him??
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Even the "Vicar of Christ"!!??. Right now you've got a "Vicar of Christ that's leading your "Religious Corporation" into Non-Christian Universalism!!! And You're gonna follow him??
I don't see Pope Francis doing that. Can you please furnish evidence to show that he believes and is teaching for Catholics to follow "non-Christian universalism"?

Anyone is capable of evil; we are not impeccable.
 

ramcam2

Member
This is where we it's better to be a protestant. See, we go directly to the the Source for our forgiveness AND we know there is only ONE unforgiveable sin.

God Speed.

P.S. Despite our differences, I really do appreciate your approach to us. It's refreshing. :)✝️
there is no doubt that god forgives sins and it is through jesus that our sins are forgiven. why will jesus send the apostles to forgive sins (John 20:21–23) when we can go to god directly? another thing, how does god says our sins are forgiven or retained?
 

ramcam2

Member
For centuries there has been a succession of questionable or evil popes. This site lists some of them:

https://xcjournal.org/the-errors-of-catholicism/bad-popes/ But there are so many sites where the evil acts of the leaders of the RCC can be found. It has made me question how can there be a claim of being the one true church when these popes have not suffered God's discipline.

Verses to support God disciplining are found:

Hebrews 12:5-7, Proverbs 3:11-12, Deut 4:36 and there are well over 70 verses that tell us about His disciipline.

Some even suffered death for disobedience starting with Adam and Eve. Cities of Sodom and Gormorrah, Lot's wife, Ananias and his wife, Moses not allowed to go into the promised land. The list is long, yet these popes are kept in power by the institution.

To me this is saying the RCC is not what it claims to be. My question is why are the evil popes not disciplined if they are truly believers and if they are not believers then why are they made popes.
in a conclave, the cardinals pray and invoke the guidance of the holy spirit as jesus promised to his church. but, the holy spirit does not prevail over the cardinals' freewill. however, if they make a bad choice, god will in the end bring good out of it (rom8: 28)
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
there is no doubt that god forgives sins and it is through jesus that our sins are forgiven. why will jesus send the apostles to forgive sins (John 20:21–23) when we can go to god directly? another thing, how does god says our sins are forgiven or retained?
The key to understanding the meaning of John 20:23 lies in the previous two verses: “Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’”

He sent them, as He is sending us, to bring the good news of the way to salvation and heaven to the whole world. Jesus was leaving the earth physically but promised God would be with them in the person of the Holy Spirit living in them.

As they proclaimed the gospel, they could honestly tell people who believed in that message that their sins were forgiven, and they could honestly tell people that did not believe in the message that their sins were not forgiven and that they stand condemned in God’s eyes. Jesus said, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36).

Believers today have the very same mission given to us! We are obligated to share the gospel message, the way to heaven, to others in the world, and we go about that mission with the Holy Spirit living inside us, guiding us as we share His truth. We are obligated to tell people the only way to be forgiven is through faith. Jesus said in John 8:24, “If you do not believe that I am (God), you will indeed die in your sins.” This is the very core of the gospel message and the very heart of what we are to explain to the world. It was Jesus’ last command to His followers before He physically left the earth—carry forward the message of hope and save as many as will believe in Him.
-GotQ
 

mica

Well-known member
The key to understanding the meaning of John 20:23 lies in the previous two verses: “Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’”

He sent them, as He is sending us, to bring the good news of the way to salvation and heaven to the whole world. Jesus was leaving the earth physically but promised God would be with them in the person of the Holy Spirit living in them.

As they proclaimed the gospel, they could honestly tell people who believed in that message that their sins were forgiven, and they could honestly tell people that did not believe in the message that their sins were not forgiven and that they stand condemned in God’s eyes. Jesus said, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36).

Believers today have the very same mission given to us! We are obligated to share the gospel message, the way to heaven, to others in the world, and we go about that mission with the Holy Spirit living inside us, guiding us as we share His truth. We are obligated to tell people the only way to be forgiven is through faith. Jesus said in John 8:24, “If you do not believe that I am (God), you will indeed die in your sins.” This is the very core of the gospel message and the very heart of what we are to explain to the world. It was Jesus’ last command to His followers before He physically left the earth—carry forward the message of hope and save as many as will believe in Him.
-GotQ
Amen!
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
The key to understanding the meaning of John 20:23 lies in the previous two verses: “Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’”

He sent them, as He is sending us, to bring the good news of the way to salvation and heaven to the whole world. Jesus was leaving the earth physically but promised God would be with them in the person of the Holy Spirit living in them.

As they proclaimed the gospel, they could honestly tell people who believed in that message that their sins were forgiven, and they could honestly tell people that did not believe in the message that their sins were not forgiven and that they stand condemned in God’s eyes. Jesus said, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36).

Believers today have the very same mission given to us! We are obligated to share the gospel message, the way to heaven, to others in the world, and we go about that mission with the Holy Spirit living inside us, guiding us as we share His truth. We are obligated to tell people the only way to be forgiven is through faith. Jesus said in John 8:24, “If you do not believe that I am (God), you will indeed die in your sins.” This is the very core of the gospel message and the very heart of what we are to explain to the world. It was Jesus’ last command to His followers before He physically left the earth—carry forward the message of hope and save as many as will believe in Him.
-GotQ
I agree that Jesus sends his disciples to continue his mission - he says they will do greater works than him - but I don't think that's restricted to proclaiming the gospel. Jesus also healed people and forgave sins. In John's Gospel the word forgiveness only comes up in this verse and repentance not once. However, when we see people's relationships with their sins, it isn't about belief in the gospel but about what they are doing (e.g. the paralysed man in John 5, where Jesus says: "Sin no more, that nothing worse befall you", the woman caught in adultery where Jesus also says, "Neither do I condemn you; go and do not sin again", the discussion of the man born blind in John 9, etc.). The point about forgiving and retaining sins seems naturally to read in relation to things people are doing rather than an ontological comment about the nature of their salvation.

Additionally, the verbs Jesus uses (forgive and retain) suggests the disciples have the ability to do this; it's not simply reflecting the state of belief of someone else.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
I agree that Jesus sends his disciples to continue his mission - he says they will do greater works than him - but I don't think that's restricted to proclaiming the gospel. Jesus also healed people and forgave sins. In John's Gospel the word forgiveness only comes up in this verse and repentance not once. However, when we see people's relationships with their sins, it isn't about belief in the gospel but about what they are doing (e.g. the paralysed man in John 5, where Jesus says: "Sin no more, that nothing worse befall you", the woman caught in adultery where Jesus also says, "Neither do I condemn you; go and do not sin again", the discussion of the man born blind in John 9, etc.). The point about forgiving and retaining sins seems naturally to read in relation to things people are doing rather than an ontological comment about the nature of their salvation.

Additionally, the verbs Jesus uses (forgive and retain) suggests the disciples have the ability to do this; it's not simply reflecting the state of belief of someone else.
lets start with a fundamental presupposition :

True or false?
"Only God can forgive sins"


If that statement is true;
then any interpretation of Scripture that contradicts that fundamental truth, must be in error.

sometimes, it really is that simple.
 
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Bob Carabbio

Well-known member
I don't see Pope Francis doing that. Can you please furnish evidence to show that he believes and is teaching for Catholics to follow "non-Christian universalism"?

Anyone is capable of evil; we are not impeccable.
Playing footsie with Islamics, and not wanting to Evangelize Jews for a couple of instances.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
I don't see Pope Francis doing that. Can you please furnish evidence to show that he believes and is teaching for Catholics to follow "non-Christian universalism"?

Anyone is capable of evil; we are not impeccable.
Bishop Athanasius Schneider has expressed grief over Pope Francis’ latest encyclical Fratelli Tutti, noting that it “lacks a clearly supernatural horizon,” misrepresents St. Francis, and furthers the theological confusion Pope Francis created with his Abu Dhabi statement.

Reflecting on the time of St. Francis where the saint was called by Christ to rebuild the Church, Archbishop Schneider says, “Today the Church of Rome finds herself in a similar situation of spiritual collapse, due to the spiritual torpor of a majority of the Shepherds of the Church, the excessive absorption of the Pope himself in temporal affairs, and his efforts to bring about the rebirth of a universal aspiration to a this-worldly and naturalistic fraternity.”

In a new interview with The Remnant, Bishop Schneider says, “Pope Francis presents St. Francis as though he had been a supporter of the diversity of religions.” Rather, the auxiliary Bishop of Astana in Kazakhstan points out, St. Francis was all about converting people to the one true faith. In making his point, Bishop Schneider quotes Pope Pius XI’s description of St. Franics as a man who “set about personally and commanded his disciples to occupy themselves  before everything else  with the conversion of the heathen  to the Faith and Law of Christ.” (emphasis in the original)

 

Nondenom40

Super Member
Nobody is arguing that the apostles and their successors had power in and of themselves to forgive sins - this is a ministry from God and through God. It is a ministry because people come to them to confess their sins; it is a ministry of healing. After all, how could the disciples forgive or retain sins if they had not heard them?

I think Paul puts it beautifully if 2 Corinthians 5:
[18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
[19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
[20] So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

When someone goes to confession in the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican or Lutheran Churches, the minister doesn't think they have the power to forgive sins of their own accord but because of the gracious ministry given by God. As Matthew writes: he has given such authority (to forgive sins) to men (Matt 9:8).

I think this is going to be a continual stumbling block between certain evangelicals/Protestants and others within the Church in seeing God and the Church in two opposite (?) ways:
(1) Where any authority or spiritual power given to the Church or working through people is seen as taking away from God's glory.
(2) Where any authority or spiritual power given to the Church or working through people is seen as giving God greater glory as mediating His saving work through us.

Jesus promised his followers that they would do greater works than he (John 14:12) because he has gone to heaven, that is, Jesus is giving us as his Body a role to play in salvation history. This is a beautiful thing for which we should praise God.
Nobody is arguing that the apostles and their successors had power in and of themselves to forgive sins - this is a ministry from God and through God. It is a ministry because people come to them to confess their sins; it is a ministry of healing. After all, how could the disciples forgive or retain sins if they had not heard them?
Again, this isn't about confession. Its about the gospel. Do you understand the difference? Not a single person in the n.t. 'went' to confession. The gospel is about salvation not simply confessing sins since last week.

I think Paul puts it beautifully if 2 Corinthians 5:
[18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
[19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
[20] So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

When someone goes to confession in the Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican or Lutheran Churches, the minister doesn't think they have the power to forgive sins of their own accord but because of the gracious ministry given by God. As Matthew writes: he has given such authority (to forgive sins) to men (Matt 9:8).
These verses have nothing to do with the rc idea of reconciliation. Borrowing a word from the bible then redefining it to mean some sacrament nowhere found in the bible is totally catholic! The passage in 2 Cor 5 has to do with salvation, not confession. Again Paul takes it back to the great commission when he talks about us being ambassadors for Christ.

I think this is going to be a continual stumbling block between certain evangelicals/Protestants and others within the Church in seeing God and the Church in two opposite (?) ways:
(1) Where any authority or spiritual power given to the Church or working through people is seen as taking away from God's glory.
(2) Where any authority or spiritual power given to the Church or working through people is seen as giving God greater glory as mediating His saving work through us.
First you'd have to list all the spiritual powers that are given to the church before we could see if it takes away from Gods glory. Many distinct rc things certainly do;
working for your salvation
atoning for your own sin
praying to mary/saints...for just a few.

You'll have to clarify what you mean by 'mediating His saving work through us.' Because as we have talked about before, there is one mediator not a billion.

Regarding John 14:12. Yes we all have work to do. Some to a greater or lesser degree and this is for fruit bearing. Not to maintain or attain our salvation. This is where 1 Cor 3 comes into play as well as 2 Cor 5...bema seat judgement.
 

RayneBeau

Well-known member
Well, what it doesn't mean is confession to a priest. There is no auricular confession or a ministerial priesthood in the n.t. So what does it mean? Forgiveness comes through God. What Jesus did was pay the ransom for our sin. The word in Mark 10:45 means to pay a ransom, break the chains, loose the bonds. That only happens when one believes in Jesus as their savior. This is the purpose of the great commission in taking the gospel to the world. In the preaching of the gospel people either believe it and receive His forgiveness or they don't. If they do, their certificate of debt is nailed to the cross i.e. their sins are atoned for; Col 2:14. Their sins are taken by Jesus and He gives them His righteousness; 2 Cor 5:21. We, who share the gospel get the privilege of telling that person their sins are forgiven. Not that we did anything, but God. Here is Robertson on John 20:23

"Are retained (κεκρατηντα). Perfect passive indicative of κρατεω. The power to forgive sin belongs only to God, but Jesus claimed to have this power and right (Mr 2:5-7). What he commits to the disciples and to us is the power and privilege of giving assurance of the forgiveness of sins by God by correctly announcing the terms of forgiveness. There is no proof that he actually transferred to the apostles or their successors the power in and of themselves to forgive sins. In Matt 16:19; Matt 18:18 we have a similar use of the rabbinical metaphor of binding and loosing by proclaiming and teaching. Jesus put into the hands of Peter and of all believers the keys of the Kingdom which we should use to open the door for those who wish to enter. This glorious promise applies to all believers who will tell the story of Christ's love for men."

Robertson's Word Pictures

But in order to even be able to proclaim such a thing, the one sharing the gospel has to have a pure, true gospel in the first place. If your gospel is wrong, and romes is, then telling someone their sins are forgiven is simply lip service. Its meaningless to tell someone their sins are gone when you don't have the authority or the right gospel. One reason rc confession is such a useless thing to do.
It would be very helpful for Roman Catholics to look closely at what the Word of God actually teaches about the priesthood.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
I think this is going to be a continual stumbling block between certain evangelicals/Protestants and others within the Church in seeing God and the Church in two opposite (?) ways:
(1) Where any authority or spiritual power given to the Church or working through people is seen as taking away from God's glory.
(2) Where any authority or spiritual power given to the Church or working through people is seen as giving God greater glory as mediating His saving work through us.
where would you place this?
Does it take away from God's glory or does it give God greater glory?

""Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff""
 

balshan

Well-known member
in a conclave, the cardinals pray and invoke the guidance of the holy spirit as jesus promised to his church. but, the holy spirit does not prevail over the cardinals' freewill. however, if they make a bad choice, god will in the end bring good out of it (rom8: 28)
Being lead by humans is what humans wanted not what God wants. These men can pray all the like but when sinners pray it is like the sacrifice of Cain.

God can work out things for Good but humans have to want it What good came from Pope Damasus 1 -

People who lived during Damasus’s rule saw an astringent day where ladies and youngsters were purchased and sold as slaves to build funds for the congregation at Damasus’ church. The individuals who resisted the domineering principle of Damasus would be tormented and truly blazed alive after their properties were seized and utilized for chapel assigned purposes. More awful fact is that the ladies forced into prostitution were not generally basic subjects of Rome, but rather female ministers and nuns themselves.

Also the requirements for leaders/elders are listed in the NT but your institution ignores them. One is that they have a good reputation.

1 Tim 3: 1-7

Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect.

So many of your leaders have not meet these requirements.
 
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