The succession of popes and their questionable behaviour

illini1959

Member
Thanks for your thoughtful response, Illini.

A couple of things. Doesn't the past perfect tense denote an action that is completed not that "occurs in the past and continues into the present" (is that the past aorist tense?). I agree that: "If you forgive sins of anyone, they have been forgiven; if you retain sins of anyone, they have been retained", is a good translation. However, isn't "because of their faith/unbelief" a theological interpolation and not actually in the text? Also, the verb directed to the disciples is in the subjunctive, which means they have the option of forgiving/not forgiving; however, if it's just about faith, how can they possibly have the option? They don't control the faith of people.

I see what you mean about the disciples going out to do the ministry of Jesus. But Jesus forgave sins. Furthermore, the pericope doesn't specifically mention preaching, just going out as Jesus did.
The perfect tense generally indicates a continuous action - the apostles are tasked with continuing to proclaim what Jesus began - that if one puts their faith in Him, their sins are forgiven. If they don't, their sins aren't forgiven. That's the option. Believe and be forgiven; don't believe and you aren't forgiven - as noted in John 3:36 which both 1 Thess and I quoted before.

That's the whole point of salvation.

Jesus didn't give any part of His Deity (which, forgiving sins would be included there since no one but God can do that) to anyone. He didn't give them authority to forgive sins, He gave them the authority to proclaim what He already did.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
lets start with a fundamental presupposition :

True or false?
"Only God can forgive sins"


If that statement is true;
then any interpretation of Scripture that contradicts that fundamental truth, must be in error.

sometimes, it really is that simple.
Sure, only God can forgive sins.

And yes, I agree with your second proposition too. The question is: Does it contradict scripture?

After all, in the Old Testament, didn't priests forgive sins through the sacrificial system? However, wasn't it God really forgiving sins through it?

Catholics see priests as ministers of God's forgiveness, not doing it off their own bat. It is authority they have from and through God, not their own.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Sure, only God can forgive sins.

And yes, I agree with your second proposition too. The question is: Does it contradict scripture?

After all, in the Old Testament, didn't priests forgive sins through the sacrificial system? However, wasn't it God really forgiving sins through it?

Catholics see priests as ministers of God's forgiveness, not doing it off their own bat. It is authority they have from and through God, not their own.
"in the Old Testament, didn't priests forgive sins?"
Sins against God?
not that I know of.

a fundamental truth "only God can forgive sins."
God did NOT give thousands and thousands of people the authority to forgive sins against God.
How do i know that?
Only God can forgive sins.!
 

balshan

Well-known member
Sure, only God can forgive sins.

And yes, I agree with your second proposition too. The question is: Does it contradict scripture?

After all, in the Old Testament, didn't priests forgive sins through the sacrificial system? However, wasn't it God really forgiving sins through it?

Catholics see priests as ministers of God's forgiveness, not doing it off their own bat. It is authority they have from and through God, not their own.
no it was not the priests, wasn't it God he either accepted the offering or He did not. Before Yom Kippur the Jewish people must make right with the people they have offended before they go to God.
 
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balshan

Well-known member
"in the Old Testament, didn't priests forgive sins?"
Sins against God?
not that I know of.

a fundamental truth "only God can forgive sins."
God did NOT give thousands and thousands of people the authority to forgive sins against God.
How do i know that?
Only God can forgive sins.!
You are correct it was only God.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Bishop Athanasius Schneider has expressed grief over Pope Francis’ latest encyclical Fratelli Tutti, noting that it “lacks a clearly supernatural horizon,” misrepresents St. Francis, and furthers the theological confusion Pope Francis created with his Abu Dhabi statement.

Reflecting on the time of St. Francis where the saint was called by Christ to rebuild the Church, Archbishop Schneider says, “Today the Church of Rome finds herself in a similar situation of spiritual collapse, due to the spiritual torpor of a majority of the Shepherds of the Church, the excessive absorption of the Pope himself in temporal affairs, and his efforts to bring about the rebirth of a universal aspiration to a this-worldly and naturalistic fraternity.”

In a new interview with The Remnant, Bishop Schneider says, “Pope Francis presents St. Francis as though he had been a supporter of the diversity of religions.” Rather, the auxiliary Bishop of Astana in Kazakhstan points out, St. Francis was all about converting people to the one true faith. In making his point, Bishop Schneider quotes Pope Pius XI’s description of St. Franics as a man who “set about personally and commanded his disciples to occupy themselves  before everything else  with the conversion of the heathen  to the Faith and Law of Christ.” (emphasis in the original)

I asked if you have evidence of Pope Francis doing that, not simple Bishop Schneider's opinion of what Pope Francis is doing. The statement Francis made at Abu Dhabi is about mutual cultural respect between Christians and Muslims. What's wrong with that?

I find it difficult to understand the Protestant position sometimes. First, there are attacks on the Catholic Church for the crusades against Muslim aggressors, then centuries later when both sides are trying to cultivate peace and tolerance, there are further attacks.

I'd love to see some doctrinal statements where Francis says things that are alleged of him.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Again, this isn't about confession. Its about the gospel. Do you understand the difference? Not a single person in the n.t. 'went' to confession. The gospel is about salvation not simply confessing sins since last week.


These verses have nothing to do with the rc idea of reconciliation. Borrowing a word from the bible then redefining it to mean some sacrament nowhere found in the bible is totally catholic! The passage in 2 Cor 5 has to do with salvation, not confession. Again Paul takes it back to the great commission when he talks about us being ambassadors for Christ.


First you'd have to list all the spiritual powers that are given to the church before we could see if it takes away from Gods glory. Many distinct rc things certainly do;
working for your salvation
atoning for your own sin
praying to mary/saints...for just a few.

You'll have to clarify what you mean by 'mediating His saving work through us.' Because as we have talked about before, there is one mediator not a billion.

Regarding John 14:12. Yes we all have work to do. Some to a greater or lesser degree and this is for fruit bearing. Not to maintain or attain our salvation. This is where 1 Cor 3 comes into play as well as 2 Cor 5...bema seat judgement.
I agree that gospel is not simply about confessing sins but doesn't it involve confessing sins and repentance? You say it's about the gospel but the words used don't point to this. It's more theologising the verses than looking at the plain reading of the text.

What I mean by "mediating His saving work through us" is that God uses believers in the world through which to reach others. We live in this world as Christ lived and do what he does. When he said, "As the Father sent me, so I send you..." it means more than preaching the gospel because Jesus did more than preach the gospel - he healed the sick, he exorcised, he taught, he suffered for others, etc. All this the Church does as an extension of Christ in the world. That's why, for Catholics and Orthodox, suffering for others, the intervention of the saints, praying for one another, etc. is part of living as Jesus in the world.

And again, I think this comes down to how we see God.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
where would you place this?
Does it take away from God's glory or does it give God greater glory?

""Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff""
Why would it take away from God's glory? If God established the Church under the stewardship of the bishops, and ultimately the bishop of Rome, then for us to obey God in this is to give Him glory. Jesus said that if we loved him we'd keep his commandments. Catholics believe submitting to the authority of the Church is keeping a commandment of Jesus.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
no it was not the priests, wasn't it God he either accepted the offering or He did not. Before Yom Kippur the Jewish people must make right with the people they have offended before they go to God.
As one example, Leviticus 4 has instances of sacrifices made for forgiveness of sins, where they were brought to the priest and "and the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven" (Lev 4:35). God has always mediated forgiveness through His people. Yes, the primary authority is with God but He delights in working through others.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
The perfect tense generally indicates a continuous action - the apostles are tasked with continuing to proclaim what Jesus began - that if one puts their faith in Him, their sins are forgiven. If they don't, their sins aren't forgiven. That's the option. Believe and be forgiven; don't believe and you aren't forgiven - as noted in John 3:36 which both 1 Thess and I quoted before.

That's the whole point of salvation.

Jesus didn't give any part of His Deity (which, forgiving sins would be included there since no one but God can do that) to anyone. He didn't give them authority to forgive sins, He gave them the authority to proclaim what He already did.
I don't think that's a right conjugation for the perfect. Just from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_(grammar)

The perfect tense or aspect (abbreviated perf or prf) is a verb form that indicates that an action or circumstance occurred earlier than the time under consideration, often focusing attention on the resulting state rather than on the occurrence itself. An example of a perfect construction is I have made dinner: although this gives information about a prior action (my making of the dinner), the focus is likely to be on the present consequences of that action (the fact that the dinner is now ready). The word perfect in this sense means "completed" (from Latin perfectum, which is the perfect passive participle of the verb perficere "to complete").

I really think you mean the aorist tense.

That interpretation really goes against the plain reading of the text and suggest more a theological gloss than anything. My claim isn't that John 20:23 is spelling out the sacrament of reconciliation in the way it is practiced today but rather than Jesus does mean to give authority to the apostles to forgive or retain sins and this goes beyond just acceptance or rejection of the gospel (because again, if that was all, it means the apostles actually don't do anything).

But Jesus did give others the power to heal or exorcise demons? That's a power of deity. Again, it comes down to how we understand God: whether He shares His authority with His Church or He doesn't.
 

ramcam2

Member
The key to understanding the meaning of John 20:23 lies in the previous two verses: “Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’”

He sent them, as He is sending us, to bring the good news of the way to salvation and heaven to the whole world. Jesus was leaving the earth physically but promised God would be with them in the person of the Holy Spirit living in them.

As they proclaimed the gospel, they could honestly tell people who believed in that message that their sins were forgiven, and they could honestly tell people that did not believe in the message that their sins were not forgiven and that they stand condemned in God’s eyes. Jesus said, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36).

Believers today have the very same mission given to us! We are obligated to share the gospel message, the way to heaven, to others in the world, and we go about that mission with the Holy Spirit living inside us, guiding us as we share His truth. We are obligated to tell people the only way to be forgiven is through faith. Jesus said in John 8:24, “If you do not believe that I am (God), you will indeed die in your sins.” This is the very core of the gospel message and the very heart of what we are to explain to the world. It was Jesus’ last command to His followers before He physically left the earth—carry forward the message of hope and save as many as will believe in Him.
-GotQ
you did not answer my question. since jesus can't be with his church visibly, he gave the power to forgive sins to other men so that the church which is a continuation of his presence (matt28: 20) can offer forgiveness to future generations. the apostles and their valid successors (laying of hands) are the instruments of god to forgive or retain sins.
 

ramcam2

Member
Being lead by humans is what humans wanted not what God wants. These men can pray all the like but when sinners pray it is like the sacrifice of Cain.

God can work out things for Good but humans have to want it What good came from Pope Damasus 1 -

People who lived during Damasus’s rule saw an astringent day where ladies and youngsters were purchased and sold as slaves to build funds for the congregation at Damasus’ church. The individuals who resisted the domineering principle of Damasus would be tormented and truly blazed alive after their properties were seized and utilized for chapel assigned purposes. More awful fact is that the ladies forced into prostitution were not generally basic subjects of Rome, but rather female ministers and nuns themselves.

Also the requirements for leaders/elders are listed in the NT but your institution ignores them. One is that they have a good reputation.

1 Tim 3: 1-7

Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full[a] respect.

So many of your leaders have not meet these requirements.
when a pope is chosen by the conclave, it is god's will but it does not mean god approves of a sinful pope. there are many sinful popes in history just like there are many sins in this world. god allows it but it does not mean he approves of it.
 

balshan

Well-known member
when a pope is chosen by the conclave, it is god's will but it does not mean god approves of a sinful pope. there are many sinful popes in history just like there are many sins in this world. god allows it but it does not mean he approves of it.
So what you are saying that God so loves believers, He gives them evil leaders who lead them into false doctrines. This is your all loving God.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
you did not answer my question. since jesus can't be with his church visibly, he gave the power to forgive sins to other men so that the church which is a continuation of his presence (matt28: 20) can offer forgiveness to future generations. the apostles and their valid successors (laying of hands) are the instruments of god to forgive or retain sins.
"since jesus can't be with his church visibly, he gave the power to forgive sins to other men"
False premise

Jesus not being here "visibly, " is irrelevant to God forgiving sins.
Jesus is omnipresent and Jesus is omniscient
Believers are in Christ and Christ is in them:

There are nearly a half million Cathodic priests right now. Through out history there have been millions.
God did NOT give a millions of people the authority to forgive sins against Him..
key point: sins against God are forgiven by ?......... God!


How do I know that?
Only God can forgive sins.!
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
you did not answer my question. since jesus can't be with his church visibly, he gave the power to forgive sins to other men so that the church which is a continuation of his presence (matt28: 20) can offer forgiveness to future generations. the apostles and their valid successors (laying of hands) are the instruments of god to forgive or retain sins.
here is your question:
"how does god says our sins are forgiven or retained?"

here was my answer in which you quoted: which was bolded and highlighted in red

our sins are forgiven by belief
our sins are retained by unbelief

Jesus said, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36).
Jesus said in John 8:24, “If you do not believe that I am (God), you will indeed die in your sins.”
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Why would it take away from God's glory? If God established the Church under the stewardship of the bishops, and ultimately the bishop of Rome, then for us to obey God in this is to give Him glory. Jesus said that if we loved him we'd keep his commandments. Catholics believe submitting to the authority of the Church is keeping a commandment of Jesus.
it is spiritual adultery:
believing a lie and going to another for something God provides!

that's how it takes away from God's glory.

the truth is that it is NOT absolutely necessary FOR SALVATION that ANY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff""
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
I asked if you have evidence of Pope Francis doing that, not simple Bishop Schneider's opinion of what Pope Francis is doing. The statement Francis made at Abu Dhabi is about mutual cultural respect between Christians and Muslims. What's wrong with that?

I find it difficult to understand the Protestant position sometimes. First, there are attacks on the Catholic Church for the crusades against Muslim aggressors, then centuries later when both sides are trying to cultivate peace and tolerance, there are further attacks.

I'd love to see some doctrinal statements where Francis says things that are alleged of him.
"I find it difficult to understand the Protestant position sometimes."

you may want to expand your reading list to include conservative, Catholic Church-loving news sites.
 

illini1959

Member
I don't think that's a right conjugation for the perfect. Just from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_(grammar)

The perfect tense or aspect (abbreviated perf or prf) is a verb form that indicates that an action or circumstance occurred earlier than the time under consideration, often focusing attention on the resulting state rather than on the occurrence itself. An example of a perfect construction is I have made dinner: although this gives information about a prior action (my making of the dinner), the focus is likely to be on the present consequences of that action (the fact that the dinner is now ready). The word perfect in this sense means "completed" (from Latin perfectum, which is the perfect passive participle of the verb perficere "to complete").

I really think you mean the aorist tense.

That interpretation really goes against the plain reading of the text and suggest more a theological gloss than anything. My claim isn't that John 20:23 is spelling out the sacrament of reconciliation in the way it is practiced today but rather than Jesus does mean to give authority to the apostles to forgive or retain sins and this goes beyond just acceptance or rejection of the gospel (because again, if that was all, it means the apostles actually don't do anything).

But Jesus did give others the power to heal or exorcise demons? That's a power of deity. Again, it comes down to how we understand God: whether He shares His authority with His Church or He doesn't.
I double checked Greek grammar sites/pages such as Robertson's Word Pictures, several Greek NT sites (just that, not by denomination specifically), Matt Slick, etc. and this is the common understanding. What it boils down to is that the apostles were given the authority to proclaim sins have been forgiven by Christ to those who believe but not to those who don't believe.

As I said before, many times (not always) the "plain reading" is what's misleading without taking other things in context. We know only God forgives sins. Healing and casting out demons isn't equal to forgiveness of sin. Jesus and, later, the Holy Spirit gave gifts and abilities to believers to further His kingdom and build up the church (body of believers). Forgiveness only comes from Him.

Salvation is based solely acceptance or rejection of the gospel, not sure why you would think otherwise. If you think "if that was all" they did means they didn't do anything, you don't understand what the message of the gospel is.
 
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