The succession of popes and their questionable behaviour

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
and there we go ; the internal issue within the Cathodic Church on full display

conservative, Catholic Church-loving Catholics are the ones who are close minded.
No, all sorts of people can be closed-minded. But I've seen those websites. They are very quick to judge people who disagree with them so I try to avoid them. I think it's wise to try to find understanding with people and see the good points in other people's perspectives too. That's one of the reasons I come on here because every though I disagree with Protestants on many things, they have some excellent points and scriptural insight that I like to learn from.

Unfortunately, human beings have a tendency to be tribalistic and divisive :-/
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
that is different than proclaiming as an infallible truth a requirement for salvation for everyone the the Bible never mentioned

straight to the point
which of this two opposite statements are actually true?

that it is absolutely necessary FOR SALVATION that EVERY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff
or
that it is NOT absolutely necessary FOR SALVATION that ANY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff""
Well, I believe the first is, obviously, because I believe the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
No, all sorts of people can be closed-minded. But I've seen those websites. They are very quick to judge people who disagree with them so I try to avoid them. I think it's wise to try to find understanding with people and see the good points in other people's perspectives too. That's one of the reasons I come on here because every though I disagree with Protestants on many things, they have some excellent points and scriptural insight that I like to learn from.

Unfortunately, human beings have a tendency to be tribalistic and divisive :-/
my point is that when you posted
"I find it difficult to understand the Protestant position sometimes.""
you should actually include the conservative Catholic websites: correct?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
my point is that when you posted
"I find it difficult to understand the Protestant position sometimes.""
you should actually include the conservative Catholic websites: correct?
Do you mean, do I find it difficult to understand conservative Catholic websites (and their positions)?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
So, God will forgive all believers who ask for forgiveness for their sins?
100% correlation: ALL believers DO ask for forgiveness for their sins
I can't imagine a scenario where someone indwelt by the Holy Spirit , who are in Christ , and Christ in them, would believe they they did not need to have their sins forgiven
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
100% correlation: ALL believers DO ask for forgiveness for their sins
I can't imagine a scenario where someone indwelt by the Holy Spirit , who are in Christ , and Christ in them, would believe they they did not need to have their sins forgiven
So, when we pray the Lord's Prayer: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" or when Jesus says that God will not forgive our sins if we don't forgive others, this doesn't apply to Christians?
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Ordinarily yes, but obviously there are exceptions, as there always are with such matters of faith.
the statement is speaking in absolute terms:
I see the actual words "we declare, we proclaim, we define" "absolutely" and "every"
where do you see any exceptions ?

Are you now saying this is true?
that it is NOT absolutely necessary FOR SALVATION that EVERY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff""
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
the statement is speaking in absolute terms:
I see the actual words "we declare, we proclaim, we define" "absolutely" and "every"
where do you see any exceptions ?

Are you now saying this is true?
that it is NOT absolutely necessary FOR SALVATION that EVERY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff""
It's as absolutely true as there is no salvation outside of the Church and salvation only comes through Jesus Christ. However, it doesn't preclude people being saved who, on this side of life, are not knowingly part of the Church, or know Christ, or subject to the pope.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
So, when we pray the Lord's Prayer: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" or when Jesus says that God will not forgive our sins if we don't forgive others, this doesn't apply to Christians?
in a legal sense that is true: but Thank God I am under GRACE: I don't deserve to have the gift of my sins forgiven
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
It's as absolutely true as there is no salvation outside of the Church and salvation only comes through Jesus Christ. However, it doesn't preclude people being saved who, on this side of life, are not knowingly part of the Church, or know Christ, or subject to the pope.
being in the CHURCH (ekklesia) means you a saved believer.
I agree there is no salvation outside of the ekklesia.
that is not the same as being EVERY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff as an absolute requirement for salvation.

I understand your dilemma ; you're stuck in defending a statement you don't believe: and you are trying to force it to say something it does not
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
being in the CHURCH (ekklesia) means you a saved believer.
I agree there is no salvation outside of the ekklesia.
that is not the same as being EVERY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff as an absolute requirement for salvation.

I understand your dilemma ; you're stuck in defending a statement you don't believe: and you are trying to force it to say something it does not
Not at all, I do believe it. I believe Jesus left his Church under the ultimate stewardship of the pope. However, I also know that through no fault of their own some people do not know the gospel, do not know God's Church, and therefore the pope.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
What does that mean? Does Jesus mean what he says or doesn't he?
Context is everything
Including the the whole context of Scripture:
Q:"what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"
A: "Keep the Commandments"
What Jesus said is 100% true and He meant it!!
(in a legal sense)

Elsewhere we are told NO ONE has kept the Commandments

but through GRACE
Acts10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Not at all, I do believe it. I believe Jesus left his Church under the ultimate stewardship of the pope. However, I also know that through no fault of their own some people do not know the gospel, do not know God's Church, and therefore the pope.
and why to believe that?
Who told you that was true?

and BTW I know the Gospel and I know God's Church (and it is NOT the Catholic Church)
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
Context is everything
Including the the whole context of Scripture:
Q:"what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"
A: "Keep the Commandments"
What Jesus said is 100% true and He meant it!!
(in a legal sense)

Elsewhere we are told NO ONE has kept the Commandments

but through GRACE
Acts10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
So, even if Christians don't forgive others they are still forgiven even though Jesus said they're not?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
and why to believe that?
Who told you that was true?

and BTW I know the Gospel and I know God's Church (and it is NOT the Catholic Church)
I believe it because I believe the Catholic Church was established by Christ, I find apostolic succession through the Church credible both theologically and historically, and it makes sense of how someone with a bit of nous would establish a Church.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
I believe it because I believe the Catholic Church was established by Christ, I find apostolic succession through the Church credible both theologically and historically, and it makes sense of how someone with a bit of nous would establish a Church.
no one denies Jesus called out a group of believers (ekklesia)

your jump in logic is that the NT ekklesia is the Roman Catholic Church under a Pope
 
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