The succession of popes and their questionable behaviour

[jonathan_hili]

and there we go ; the internal issue within the Cathodic Church on full display

conservative, Catholic Church-loving Catholics are the ones who are close minded.

No, all sorts of people can be closed-minded. But I've seen those websites. They are very quick to judge people who disagree with them so I try to avoid them. I think it's wise to try to find understanding with people and see the good points in other people's perspectives too. That's one of the reasons I come on here because every though I disagree with Protestants on many things, they have some excellent points and scriptural insight that I like to learn from.

Unfortunately, human beings have a tendency to be tribalistic and divisive :-/

 

[jonathan_hili]

that is different than proclaiming as an infallible truth a requirement for salvation for everyone the the Bible never mentioned

straight to the point
which of this two opposite statements are actually true?

that it is absolutely necessary FOR SALVATION that EVERY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff
or
that it is NOT absolutely necessary FOR SALVATION that ANY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff""

Well, I believe the first is, obviously, because I believe the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation.

 

[jonathan_hili]

God does not forgive everyone sins: only believer's sins
Believers turn FROM sin TO Christ as the Lord and Savior in faith, for the forgiveness of their sins

So, God will forgive all believers who ask for forgiveness for their sins?

 

[1Thess521]

No, all sorts of people can be closed-minded. But I've seen those websites. They are very quick to judge people who disagree with them so I try to avoid them. I think it's wise to try to find understanding with people and see the good points in other people's perspectives too. That's one of the reasons I come on here because every though I disagree with Protestants on many things, they have some excellent points and scriptural insight that I like to learn from.

Unfortunately, human beings have a tendency to be tribalistic and divisive :-/

my point is that when you posted
"I find it difficult to understand the Protestant position sometimes.""
you should actually include the conservative Catholic websites: correct?

 

[jonathan_hili]

my point is that when you posted
"I find it difficult to understand the Protestant position sometimes.""
you should actually include the conservative Catholic websites: correct?

Do you mean, do I find it difficult to understand conservative Catholic websites (and their positions)?

 

[1Thess521]

Well, I believe the first is, obviously, because I believe the Catholic Church is necessary for salvation.

that is not what it says
it says "EVERY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff"

is that a requirement for salvation?

 

[jonathan_hili]

that is not what it says
it says "EVERY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff"

is that a requirement for salvation?

Ordinarily yes, but obviously there are exceptions, as there always are with such matters of faith.

 

[1Thess521]

So, God will forgive all believers who ask for forgiveness for their sins?

100% correlation: ALL believers DO ask for forgiveness for their sins
I can't imagine a scenario where someone indwelt by the Holy Spirit , who are in Christ , and Christ in them, would believe they they did not need to have their sins forgiven

 

[jonathan_hili]

100% correlation: ALL believers DO ask for forgiveness for their sins
I can't imagine a scenario where someone indwelt by the Holy Spirit , who are in Christ , and Christ in them, would believe they they did not need to have their sins forgiven

So, when we pray the Lord's Prayer: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" or when Jesus says that God will not forgive our sins if we don't forgive others, this doesn't apply to Christians?

 

[1Thess521]

Ordinarily yes, but obviously there are exceptions, as there always are with such matters of faith.

the statement is speaking in absolute terms:
I see the actual words "we declare, we proclaim, we define" "absolutely" and "every"
where do you see any exceptions ?

Are you now saying this is true?
that it is NOT absolutely necessary FOR SALVATION that EVERY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff""

 

[jonathan_hili]

the statement is speaking in absolute terms:
I see the actual words "we declare, we proclaim, we define" "absolutely" and "every"
where do you see any exceptions ?

Are you now saying this is true?
that it is NOT absolutely necessary FOR SALVATION that EVERY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff""

It's as absolutely true as there is no salvation outside of the Church and salvation only comes through Jesus Christ. However, it doesn't preclude people being saved who, on this side of life, are not knowingly part of the Church, or know Christ, or subject to the pope.

 

[1Thess521]

So, when we pray the Lord's Prayer: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" or when Jesus says that God will not forgive our sins if we don't forgive others, this doesn't apply to Christians?

in a legal sense that is true: but Thank God I am under GRACE: I don't deserve to have the gift of my sins forgiven

 

[1Thess521]

It's as absolutely true as there is no salvation outside of the Church and salvation only comes through Jesus Christ. However, it doesn't preclude people being saved who, on this side of life, are not knowingly part of the Church, or know Christ, or subject to the pope.

being in the CHURCH (ekklesia) means you a saved believer.
I agree there is no salvation outside of the ekklesia.
that is not the same as being EVERY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff as an absolute requirement for salvation.

I understand your dilemma ; you're stuck in defending a statement you don't believe: and you are trying to force it to say something it does not

 

[jonathan_hili]

in a legal sense that is true: but Thank God I am under GRACE: I don't deserve to have the gift of my sins forgiven

What does that mean? Does Jesus mean what he says or doesn't he?

 

[jonathan_hili]

being in the CHURCH (ekklesia) means you a saved believer.
I agree there is no salvation outside of the ekklesia.
that is not the same as being EVERY human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff as an absolute requirement for salvation.

I understand your dilemma ; you're stuck in defending a statement you don't believe: and you are trying to force it to say something it does not

Not at all, I do believe it. I believe Jesus left his Church under the ultimate stewardship of the pope. However, I also know that through no fault of their own some people do not know the gospel, do not know God's Church, and therefore the pope.

 

[1Thess521]

What does that mean? Does Jesus mean what he says or doesn't he?

Context is everything
Including the the whole context of Scripture:
Q:"what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"
A: "Keep the Commandments"
What Jesus said is 100% true and He meant it!!
(in a legal sense)

Elsewhere we are told NO ONE has kept the Commandments

but through GRACE
Acts10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

 

[1Thess521]

Not at all, I do believe it. I believe Jesus left his Church under the ultimate stewardship of the pope. However, I also know that through no fault of their own some people do not know the gospel, do not know God's Church, and therefore the pope.

and why to believe that?
Who told you that was true?

and BTW I know the Gospel and I know God's Church (and it is NOT the Catholic Church)

 

[jonathan_hili]

Context is everything
Including the the whole context of Scripture:
Q:"what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"
A: "Keep the Commandments"
What Jesus said is 100% true and He meant it!!
(in a legal sense)

Elsewhere we are told NO ONE has kept the Commandments

but through GRACE
Acts10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

So, even if Christians don't forgive others they are still forgiven even though Jesus said they're not?

 

[jonathan_hili]

and why to believe that?
Who told you that was true?

and BTW I know the Gospel and I know God's Church (and it is NOT the Catholic Church)

I believe it because I believe the Catholic Church was established by Christ, I find apostolic succession through the Church credible both theologically and historically, and it makes sense of how someone with a bit of nous would establish a Church.

 

[1Thess521]

I believe it because I believe the Catholic Church was established by Christ, I find apostolic succession through the Church credible both theologically and historically, and it makes sense of how someone with a bit of nous would establish a Church.

no one denies Jesus called out a group of believers (ekklesia)

your jump in logic is that the NT ekklesia is the Roman Catholic Church under a Pope