The succession of popes and their questionable behaviour

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
yes, the adjective catholic means universal:
However Catholic is a proper noun usually referencing (in this forum) the Catholic Church in Rome under the authority of a Pope.
At its best. the Catholic Church was once part of the catholic church.
There was ever only the Catholic Church. If "catholic" just meant universal and didn't distinguish a particular Church, it doesn't actually mean anything. As one example, the Edict of Thessalonica (380) recognises the Trinitarian faith as belonging to Catholic Christians and mentions the pope at the time. If it meant "universal Christians", then it would include Arians, which was the opposite of what it was trying to say.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
ok then:
if God did NOT establish an organization that claimed infallibility and requires submission for salvation for the Jews
then why "must it be so" for the Christian Church ?
It mustn't be so, God can do whatever He wants. The claim is made based on Scripture and Tradition, and it makes sense. Protestants make a similar claim, since Jews at the time of Jesus and before didn't hold to an inerrant canon of Scripture.

However, the submission for salvation part is the important one. Even for Jews, if someone didn't follow the Mosaic Law or participate in the Temple cult, or be circumcised, etc. they could lose salvation. Submission to religious edicts and an authority structure was generally required for salvation.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
If every local assembly was autonomous, how did the Council of Jerusalem have any effect? Furthermore, why would Paul have any more authority than Judaisers in the Church? Now, there was clearly a greater degree of autonomy for the simple reason that it's very difficult to administer a collective with such distance, less than ideal communications, persecution at times, etc. but I do think there was a deference to apostolic leadership, even if it was more diffuse.

I think William MacDonald is wrong. If anything, history has shown us that only a united Church has the ability to stand up to governments and protect the faith (though at times this is incredibly difficult too). If the state and Church become too intertwined that's certainly a problem, though.
a careful study of the passage will show that this was not an official body with regulatory powers. It was simply a gathering of apostles and elders acting in an advisory capacity.

The council did not summon the men to come from Antioch; the latter decided to consult the men in Jerusalem. The decision of the council was not binding on the churches; it was simply offered as the combined judgment of the group.

If the state and Church become too intertwined that's certainly a problem, though.
the Catholic Church /Government relationship China is a disaster

There are dozen of stories like this from a wide variety of new sources

Cardinal Zen: Pope Francis is ‘encouraging a schism’ by ‘legitimizing’ China’s Communist-run church

Cdl Zen: Vatican has delivered Church in China into ‘hands of the madness of our government’

Social scientist: Vatican is ‘negotiating the surrender’ of China’s real Church to the Communists


Did the state and Church become too intertwined with the Roman Empire?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
a careful study of the passage will show that this was not an official body with regulatory powers. It was simply a gathering of apostles and elders acting in an advisory capacity.

The council did not summon the men to come from Antioch; the latter decided to consult the men in Jerusalem. The decision of the council was not binding on the churches; it was simply offered as the combined judgment of the group.


the Catholic Church /Government relationship China is a disaster

There are dozen of stories like this from a wide variety of new sources

Cardinal Zen: Pope Francis is ‘encouraging a schism’ by ‘legitimizing’ China’s Communist-run church

Cdl Zen: Vatican has delivered Church in China into ‘hands of the madness of our government’

Social scientist: Vatican is ‘negotiating the surrender’ of China’s real Church to the Communists


Did the state and Church become too intertwined with the Roman Empire?
The letter they write to the Antiochean community states: "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity." How can they lay a burden upon them if they really don't have any authority?

China is a real problem, I agree, and there are no easy solutions.

I think the Church and state became too intertwined in the East. In the West, it could be a more temporising force at times but also a challenge to secular powers too.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
It comes from the common experience that people do things in community and communities need structure, especially where beliefs and practices can differ or be divisive. Jews did have an organisation: they had the Temple cult and a priesthood that controlled sacrifices; scriptural interpretation - which doubtlessly became more important in Second Temple period - was invested in the religious elite. Even Jesus conceded that they had teaching authority that others didn't have.

It comes well before Constantine. Just read what the early Church Fathers wrote, e.g. Ignatius.

It mustn't be so, God can do whatever He wants. The claim is made based on Scripture and Tradition, and it makes sense. Protestants make a similar claim, since Jews at the time of Jesus and before didn't hold to an inerrant canon of Scripture.

However, the submission for salvation part is the important one. Even for Jews, if someone didn't follow the Mosaic Law or participate in the Temple cult, or be circumcised, etc. they could lose salvation. Submission to religious edicts and an authority structure was generally required for salvation.
you keep missing the point:
Following Scripture's requirement for salvation is completely different than having non-scriptural requirements for salvation (and being infallibly proclaimed!)

Much of Matthew 23 applies to the Catholic Church
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
you keep missing the point:
Following Scripture's requirement for salvation is completely different than having non-scriptural requirements for salvation (and being infallibly proclaimed!)

Much of Matthew 23 applies to the Catholic Church
Matthew 16 and Matthew 18 don't, where Jesus gives Peter and the apostles the authority to bind and loose. And, obviously, if there is no infallible authority, then no group can infallibly define the canon of scripture, so nobody can be assured of what scripture's requirements are because everyone can legitimately hold to different scriptures.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
China is a real problem, I agree, and there are no easy solutions.
i have a very close friend who was part of missionary group that would go into China and meet with the house churches
(yes, from a protestants' perspective)
He and his group had been going for decades: training and equipping the house churches on how to grow.

Since the Catholicism (whatever form it is) is the only approved "Christian" religion; pastors have been jailed or go missing ; the movement and progress has stopped.

as before in history, the blame rests on the Catholic Church
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Matthew 16 and Matthew 18 don't, where Jesus gives Peter and the apostles the authority to bind and loose. And, obviously, if there is no infallible authority, then no group can infallibly define the canon of scripture, so nobody can be assured of what scripture's requirements are because everyone can legitimately hold to different scriptures.
"then no group can infallibly define the canon of scripture,"

Then you should be able to tell us when the Canon was irst infallibly defined
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
i have a very close friend who was part of missionary group that would go into China and meet with the house churches
(yes, from a protestants' perspective)
He and his group had been going for decades: training and equipping the house churches on how to grow.

Since the Catholicism (whatever form it is) is the only approved "Christian" religion; pastors have been jailed or go missing ; the movement and progress has stopped.

as before in history, the blame rests on the Catholic Church
You're joking, right? There are plenty of Catholic missionaries and priests underground or in Chinese gaols. The state-approved Catholic Church is basically kowtowing the the Party. The difficulty in China is how to mediate between those who are Catholics in China and the Party so as not to have them lock up and kill more Catholics/Christians.

By the way, I lived in China for two years.
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
"then no group can infallibly define the canon of scripture,"

Then you should be able to tell us when the Canon was irst infallibly defined
By the Catholic Church? Not until Trent in a universally binding fashion, thought there were some local councils that defined a canon prior to this.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
By the Catholic Church? Not until Trent in a universally binding fashion, thought there were some local councils that defined a canon prior to this.
so Christianity went 1400 years WITHOUT an infallibility defined Canon
no other groups have the Catholic Canon
and in case you didn't know : Protestants don't believe the Canon is infallible and in fact the Catholic Canon is in error

so your point
""then no group can infallibly define the canon of scripture,""
fails
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
You're joking, right? There are plenty of Catholic missionaries and priests underground or in Chinese gaols. The state-approved Catholic Church is basically kowtowing the the Party. The difficulty in China is how to mediate between those who are Catholics in China and the Party so as not to have them lock up and kill more Catholics/Christians.

By the way, I lived in China for two years.
no I'm not joking:
The Catholic Church has sold out true Christianity(and even "true Catholicism") in China
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
so Christianity went 1400 years WITHOUT an infallibility defined Canon
no other groups have the Catholic Canon
and in case you didn't know : Protestants don't believe the Canon is infallible and in fact the Catholic Canon is in error

so your point
""then no group can infallibly define the canon of scripture,""
fails
Christianity didn't need an infallibly define canon because people generally accepted the canon that had been inherited through tradition. It was only when Luther began throwing out books that the Church had to define the canon, much like Arius and the Trinity. The Orthodox Church has a more extensive canonical list as does the Coptic Church.

Protestants don't believe the canon is infallible? How do they know they've got the right books then?
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
no I'm not joking:
The Catholic Church has sold out true Christianity(and even "true Catholicism") in China
I think you're wrong. That wasn't the impression I had when I was there... and since. There are officially sanctioned Protestant sanctioned churches too (e.g. Three-Self-Patriotic Movement) but I wouldn't say they sold out true Christianity. It's a very, very tough situation there and I think Christians are trying to get by, just disagreeing on what the best way would be. There are Catholics and Protestants on both sides of the fence.
 

1Thess521

Well-known member
Protestants don't believe the canon is infallible? How do they know they've got the right books then?

and we now move to Epistemology

Do you mean infallibly know we have the right books
or do mean know with a high degree of certainty?

I do not infallibly know the sun will rise tomorrow.
Not infallibly knowing that doesn't change my life on bit

Do you infallibly know you have the right books?
or do you know with a high degree of certainty?
 
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1Thess521

Well-known member
I think you're wrong. That wasn't the impression I had when I was there... and since. There are officially sanctioned Protestant sanctioned churches too (e.g. Three-Self-Patriotic Movement) but I wouldn't say they sold out true Christianity. It's a very, very tough situation there and I think Christians are trying to get by, just disagreeing on what the best way would be. There are Catholics and Protestants on both sides of the fence.
there are Catholic Cardinals who think I'm right
 

illini1959

Member
Okay, I don't want to belabour the point.

But we know that God has worked through people in the past to forgive sins, e.g. the old covenant priesthood. Again, it is only God who forgives sins but He works through us too to do so.

Here's a question: Do you believe that God forgives everyone's sin that they ask Him to forgive?
The difference is....Jesus.

In the OT God used priests in lieu of a perfect sacrifice. Jesus is that Perfect sacrifce and the reason priests are no longer needed for this.

Re: your question - for the unbeliever: "to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’" Acts 26:18

For the believer: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
 

jonathan_hili

Well-known member
and we now move to Epistemology

Do you mean infallibly know we have the right books
or do mean know with a high degree of certainty?

I do not infallibly know the sun will rise tomorrow.
Not infallibly knowing that doesn't change my life on bit

Do you infallibly know you have the right books?
or do you know with a high degree of certainty?
I mean having any degree of certainty, it doesn't have to be infallible. On what do you base any confidence that you have the correct canon of scripture?
 

ramcam2

Member
please make some effort to follow the context of your own posts
(it was not about free will)
you said
"what happens in the conclave is god's will."

so what?? What does that prove about your precious conclaves?
I posted in response
"were the actions of Pharaoh, Cyrus, and Pilate God's will?"

Yes, the actions of Pharaoh, Cyrus, and Pilate were part of God's will..
Do they deserve any honor for that?
Should we submit to them?

Now apply that point to your whatever point you are trying to make about a conclve
(hint: it is not about free will)
do you agree that everything that happens in this world is god's will. but, god does not impose his will on us, he gave us freedom of our will. we are free to choose or not to choose, to do this or to do that. do you agree? if you agree, you can apply this premise to what happens in a conclave. thanks.
 
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