the Syriac Sinaiticus (Syriacus) palimpsest manuscript at St. Catherine's monastery

Steven Avery

Well-known member
Here is a picture of a truly ancient manuscript, a palimpsest, from St. Catherine's at Mt. Sinai.

Syriac Sinaiticus (Syriacus)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Sinaiticus

Compare with Codex Sinaiticus from c. AD 1840, claimed by some to be similarly ancient like Syriacus.
Same weather :).

Codex Syriacus
https://www.pbase.com/image/120887369

index.php
 
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Steven Avery

Well-known member
Comparison with another manuscript “discovered” in St. Catherine’s in the 1800s.

Codex Sinaiticus
Video by BBC 4, Beauty of Books (2011) - length 2:03
 

cjab

Well-known member
cjab, you are not happy about the comparison?
Why are you comparing what is incomparable? Can you give the provenance of the Syriac Sinaiticus, for how long it has been at St. Catherines, under what conditions it was stored, versus Sinaticus, and describe the differences in ink composition and parchment composition (i.e. were the same animals used, same thickness, etc?) between the Sinaiticus and Syriac Sinaiticus?

Just from looking at the Syriac Sinaiticus, it appears to have suffered from damp at some point.

If you cannot list all these details, what exactly are you comparing? You're pursuing a wild goose chase based on nothing more than your incessant desire to generate propaganda and conspiracy theroies of an invidious kind.

As it happens, here we don't share your interest in conspiracy theories. Why not take it to a conspiracy theory www site?
 

TwoNoteableCorruptions

Well-known member
Comparison with another manuscript “discovered” in St. Catherine’s in the 1800s.

Codex Sinaiticus
Video by BBC 4, Beauty of Books (2011) - length 2:03

On every page turned in the video, you could see the bad cockling of the parchment...which has supposedly been worked on to improve already. Which makes you wonder how bad was the cockling before (ironically) Cockerell did his hydration and flattening...if it's that noticeable now.

Douglas Cockerell, 1938

Cap 7.PNG


On the first page, you can see the yellow staining (along with some cockling) exactly where people were putting their fingers to...to...do what? Turn the pages. You can see that even on the image preview from YouTube in your post (just to the left, parallel with his fingers).

Milne & Skeat p.71

"The vellum is generally in good condition, retaining its ‘life and toughness except where, as on some of the edges of the leaves, it has
been wet (i.e. and become dry again). In those places it is brittle and liable to crack
."​
 

TwoNoteableCorruptions

Well-known member
Codex Sinaiticus
Video by BBC 4, Beauty of Books (2011) - length 2:03

It's interesting too, that almost all people who examine the manuscript in person, (like Helen Shenton and the narrator's description in Steven's video above) they almost invariably describe the same four main (or most outstanding) features of the Codex Sinaiticus in the same basic way Vitaliano Donati does.

  1. It's large size
  2. Very fine or thin parchment
  3. Use glowing superlatives (or similar) about the parchment, like "the most beautiful" or "phenomenal" etc
  4. Beautifully written Uncial script


Vitaliano Donati, 1761
Proceedings of the Royal Academy of Sciences of Turin”
Volume 8, 1873
Page 482

Book 2, Page 27:
“It was in this monastery that I found the largest quantity of parchment codices, many of which are kept hidden away in a library, and others are loose in a jumble in a atrocious warehouse facility. Almost all of them are parchments, for the greatest part, Greek ones ; there are many Holy Fathers, and Biblical expositors, various codices of the lives of the Saints, a few historians ; and a few writers on other subjects. Some of which, and not a few of them, looked to me to be older than the seventh century, and there was one Bible in particular, on [Lit., "in"] the most beautiful, extremely large, thin [Or: "fine"], square shaped parchments, which is written in the most beautiful round characters ; then they keep in the Church a Greek Evangelistry in golden round characters, that one also is supposed to be very [Or: “extremely”] ancient. Apart from the Greek Codices, they didn't appear to have a great variety of other languages, though there are some different ones in Arabic, Syrian, Chaldean, Illyrian, Ethiopian ; and I didn't see a wisp of any Latin ones either. Between the said Codices, I observed a few Greek treatises on ancient music, and many volumes, extremely long ones, for liturgical use...”
Cap 10a - Copy.PNG
 
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TwoNoteableCorruptions

Well-known member
Examples of the pre-1933-1938 repair cockling is evident on a lot of pages in the Kirsopp Lake photos of 1911.


Cap 26.PNG




Cap 26a (1).png




Kirsopp Lakes 1911 black and white photos are available at CSNTM (Center for Study of New Testament Manuscripts) below:

https://manuscripts.csntm.org/manuscript/View/GA_01



Compare:


Scribes and Correctors of the Codex Sinaiticus
Herbert John Mansfield Milne, Theodore Cressy Skeat, Douglas Cockerell
British Museum, 1938

Chapter 10
Condition, Repair, and Binding of the Manuscript

Subheading 2.
State of Preservation
Page 71



“The vellum is generally in good condition, retaining its 'life' and toughness except where, as on some of the edges of the leaves, it has been wet. In those places it is brittle and liable to crack. On most of the edges there were numerous short slits, and the inner margins of many leaves were badly slit and damaged. Nearly all the inner margins had been contracted by the application of hot glue to the back in the course of successive bindings. A good many leaves were rather badly cockled all over, and some were locally contracted where spots of water appear to have fallen on them ; where these spots fell on the writing, the ink has run. There are also a number of brown stains, perhaps due to drops of oil or grease from the lamps and candles of pious readers in the past. The occasional flaying-marks, i.e. accidental punctures in the skin, which develop into oval or circular holes in the process of manufacture, have as a rule been covered over with thin vellum shavings...”​



So the old black and white photos by Kirsopp and Hellen Lake do indeed verify the facts stated by Milne's and Skeat's "a good many leaves were rather badly cockled all over" in 1911.
 

TwoNoteableCorruptions

Well-known member
An interesting example of the effect of both the professional repair work done by Douglas Cockerell and also the probable effect of the storage conditions in Russia (prior to 1933) had on the parchment can be illustrated by more photo comparisons.



Now here's a photo from the British Library article above.

Note how the leaves in this photo are "badly cockled all over" just as Milne's and Skeat's said!


Cap 27a (1).png

Today known as:

(Left Hand Side)
Luke, 24:23 - 24:53 library: BL folio: 246b scribe: A

(Right Hand Side)
John, 1:1 - 1:38 library: BL folio: 247 scribe: A


Cap 27.PNG


This is most likely a British Library photo taken during the repair work done by Douglas Cockerell etc circa 1938.

Now compare the same folio's, as photographed by the Lake's in 1911.



Kirsopp Lakes 1911 black and white photos are available at CSNTM (Center for Study of New Testament Manuscripts) below:

https://manuscripts.csntm.org/manuscript/View/GA_01


Cap 27g (1).png

(Left hand side = BL photo)
(Right hand side = Lake's photo)
Luke, 24:23 - 24:53 library: BL folio: 246b scribe: A

Cap 27f (1).png

(Left hand side = BL photo)
(Right hand side = Lake's photo)
John, 1:1 - 1:38 library: BL folio: 247 scribe: A​


Notice how the cockling doesn't look anywhere near as bad in 1911 photos.

Fast forward 22 years (to 1933) or 27 years (to 1938) and the condition of the parchment appears to have worsened, and the cockling appears to have increased.

But when you look at the same folios today on the CodexSinaiticus.org website, they appear to have virtually no cockling at all. Now, I could only do half to two thirds of a folio at a time with the screen captures, but bare with me.



So, what's the deal? Conspiracy?

Short answer = no!

I'm only allowed a maximum of 10 images per post, so let's continue in the one below.
 

Attachments

  • Raking Light Button ( 1 ) (1).png
    Raking Light Button ( 1 ) (1).png
    95.2 KB · Views: 0
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TwoNoteableCorruptions

Well-known member
So what's the deal? Conspiracy?

No. Here's the two simple reasons for the different appearance.

Reason 1 = Repair!
Stretching and flattening of the parchment cockling!

Scribes and Correctors of the Codex Sinaiticus
Herbert John Mansfield Milne, Theodore Cressy Skeat, Douglas Cockerell
British Museum, 1938

Chapter 10
Condition, Repair, and Binding of the Manuscript

Subheading 14.
New Binding
Pages 83-85


[Page 83]
“When individual leaves were mended—and often more than a day was spent on mending one leaf—they were put between wooden frames having crossed strings stretched across them. The two frames were placed on a damp cloth, a second damp cloth placed over them, and the whole covered by a piece of waterproof sheeting. In this way the vellum leaves were subjected to a damp atmosphere without actually coming in contact with the damp cloths. After about an hour, or an hour and a half, the leaves became quite soft and limp and could be straightened out on the stretching-frames (Fig. 23). They were then left to dry in the frames, still under tension, and in a few hours could be removed and placed in the press without any danger of set-off. By this process the leaves were flattened, and although they became slightly uneven afterwards, they remain reasonably flat. Now that [[Page 84 had photograph]]

Cap 3a.PNG

[Page 85 continues text] the cockling has been eliminated the leaves show a marked tendency to curl towards the hair side, but this is a property common to all* thin vellum, old or new.”


Another photo (unknown source) of the flattening apparatus with Milne's & Skeat's book.

Cap 3.PNG

Cap 3b.PNG

So, here we have the first reason why the Standard Light setting photo's (BTW, the default photo's displayed on the codexsinaiticus.org website) show very little cockling at all is because the worst parchment cockling was professionally repaired, i.e. stretched and flattened. Thus difference number 1 with the circa 1938 (presumably) British Library photograph in the previous post.

Here's the second reason for the difference in the photos.

Reason 2 = Light Setting!
The standard vs raking light settings make a difference1​

Now, let's go back to the codexsinaiticus.org website, and click the Raking Light setting button,

Raking Light Button ( 1 ) (1).png

Let's compare the photo's again, and look to see if the cockling looks any different to the Standard light setting!

Cap 27h.PNG

Cap 27h1 (1).png

Luke, 24:23 - 24:53 library: BL folio: 246b scribe: A

Cap 27h2 (1).png

Cap 27h21 (1).png

John, 1:1 - 1:38 library: BL folio: 247 scribe: A​

Ah! The cockling is still evident today after all!

So, the 1938 repair work removed the very worst of, but not all of the cockling, which is still evident in the modern 2000's photo's - under the right/raking light setting!

Conclusion?

IMO, both the poor storage conditions in Russia, a tin box, and the damp humidity and near artic cold of St. Petersburg (built on a swamp BTW) had a visible effect on the state of the parchment cockling of the Codex Sinaiticus between 1911 and 1933-1938.

No, artificial Tischendorf vandalism theory is necessary (nor possible because he was dead!) to explain the visible differences in the photographs, when the simple facts (repair work and photographic lighting) are known.

Cap 27j (1).png

P.S. Notice the color difference just between the Raking Lighting (more white) and the Standard Lighting (browner) taken at the same time of the same folio above!
 
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TwoNoteableCorruptions

Well-known member
So what's the deal? Conspiracy?

No. Here's the two simple reasons for the different appearance.

Reason 1 = Repair!
Stretching and flattening of the parchment cockling!

Scribes and Correctors of the Codex Sinaiticus
Herbert John Mansfield Milne, Theodore Cressy Skeat, Douglas Cockerell
British Museum, 1938

Chapter 10
Condition, Repair, and Binding of the Manuscript

Subheading 14.
New Binding
Pages 83-85


[Page 83]
“When individual leaves were mended—and often more than a day was spent on mending one leaf—they were put between wooden frames having crossed strings stretched across them. The two frames were placed on a damp cloth, a second damp cloth placed over them, and the whole covered by a piece of waterproof sheeting. In this way the vellum leaves were subjected to a damp atmosphere without actually coming in contact with the damp cloths. After about an hour, or an hour and a half, the leaves became quite soft and limp and could be straightened out on the stretching-frames (Fig. 23). They were then left to dry in the frames, still under tension, and in a few hours could be removed and placed in the press without any danger of set-off. By this process the leaves were flattened, and although they became slightly uneven afterwards, they remain reasonably flat. Now that [[Page 84 had photograph]]

View attachment 4898

[Page 85 continues text] the cockling has been eliminated the leaves show a marked tendency to curl towards the hair side, but this is a property common to all* thin vellum, old or new.”


Another photo (unknown source) of the flattening apparatus with Milne's & Skeat's book.

View attachment 4899

View attachment 4900

The extra photo on the left (blue-ish color [Attachments 4899 and 4900]) is not of the Codex Sinaiticus apparatus, but a similar apparatus modeled on the one invented and used by Cockerell and co, on the Sinaiticus. Cockerell's restoration work and innovative technology had a big influence on other professional conservators.

I'd just thought I'd point that out.
 

TwoNoteableCorruptions

Well-known member
We have a newsreel footage that shows you that the 1933 pages were easily handled, and the bit of wrinking does not effect its essential youth and flexibility.

Negating a your attempt with a whole bunch of posts :).

Are you talking about these videos?

Of the same event in 1933, but from different cameramen.


British Museum acquires Codex Sinaiticus (1933)
British Pathé

530 views Nov 12, 2020
GAUMONT BRITISH NEWSREEL (REUTERS)
FILM ID: VLVAD10UR0T6RL6UCQIG7DB2JPHCY
Archive: Reuters
Archive managed by: British Pathé





Compare


Variant Readings
Newsreel Footage of Codex Sinaiticus from 1933
Posted on February 13, 2019 by Brent Nongbri


https://videopress.com/v/FdScOuZ6
 

TwoNoteableCorruptions

Well-known member
and the bit of wrinking

A bit?

Cap 27.PNG

Don't forget this was stretched and flattened in 1938



Scribes and Correctors of the Codex Sinaiticus
Herbert John Mansfield Milne, Theodore Cressy Skeat, Douglas Cockerell
British Museum, 1938

Chapter 10
Condition, Repair, and Binding of the Manuscript

Subheading 14.
New Binding
Pages 83-85

[Page 83]
“When individual leaves were mended—and often more than a day was spent on mending one leaf—they were put between wooden frames having crossed strings stretched across them. The two frames were placed on a damp cloth, a second damp cloth placed over them, and the whole covered by a piece of waterproof sheeting. In this way the vellum leaves were subjected to a damp atmosphere without actually coming in contact with the damp cloths. After about an hour, or an hour and a half, the leaves became quite soft and limp and could be straightened out on the stretching-frames (Fig. 23). They were then left to dry in the frames, still under tension, and in a few hours could be removed and placed in the press without any danger of set-off. By this process the leaves were flattened, and although they became slightly uneven afterwards, they remain reasonably flat. Now that [[Page 84 had photograph]]

Cap 3a.PNG


[Page 85 continues text] the cockling has been eliminated the leaves show a marked tendency to curl towards the hair side, but this is a property common to all* thin vellum, old or new.”​
 
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