The "T" in TULIP - refuted in one verse.

"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matt. 11:21)

Added bonus: even Sodom would have repented had they seen the same miracles!

"And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (Matt 11:23)

It seems to me that if the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is true, then neither of these scenarios would have actually happened since (in the Calvinistic scheme of things) the non-elect have no ability to respond favorably to any outward call of the gospel; they don't have the inner regeneration of the Holy Spirit causing them to respond favorably.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matt. 11:21)

Added bonus: even Sodom would have repented had they seen the same miracles!

"And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (Matt 11:23)

It seems to me that if the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is true, then neither of these scenarios would have actually happened since (in the Calvinistic scheme of things) the non-elect have no ability to respond favorably to any outward call of the gospel; they don't have the inner regeneration of the Holy Spirit causing them to respond favorably.
Another passage

Deuteronomy 30:11–16 (ESV)

The Choice of Life and Death
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

Similar to the verse you quote

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13:15 (KJV 1900)
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 

zerinus

Active member
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matt. 11:21)

Added bonus: even Sodom would have repented had they seen the same miracles!

"And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (Matt 11:23)

It seems to me that if the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is true, then neither of these scenarios would have actually happened since (in the Calvinistic scheme of things) the non-elect have no ability to respond favorably to any outward call of the gospel; they don't have the inner regeneration of the Holy Spirit causing them to respond favorably.
Valid points. Calvinism is shot through from start to finish ish. Those verses don't just undermine the "T" of TULIP, but the rest of it as well. They equally undermine Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints. They undermine both "predestination" and "faith alone," the two foundational elements of Calvinism.
 

Beloved Daughter

Active member
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matt. 11:21)

Added bonus: even Sodom would have repented had they seen the same miracles!

"And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (Matt 11:23)

It seems to me that if the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is true, then neither of these scenarios would have actually happened since (in the Calvinistic scheme of things) the non-elect have no ability to respond favorably to any outward call of the gospel; they don't have the inner regeneration of the Holy Spirit causing them to respond favorably.

Valid points. Calvinism is shot through from start to finish ish. Those verses don't just undermine the "T" of TULIP, but the rest of it as well. They equally undermine Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints. They undermine both "predestination" and "faith alone," the two foundational elements of Calvinism.

No valid points at all. Are you arguing about the text or with Calvinism? These verses in no way undermine Calvinism. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you wrote. Could you please rephrase?
 

zerinus

Active member
No valid points at all. Are you arguing about the text or with Calvinism? These verses in no way undermine Calvinism. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you wrote. Could you please rephrase?
The OP provided an adequate exposition, and Tom added more. If you have an issue with that, address it to them, why are you addressing it to me?
 

TomFL

Well-known member
No valid points at all. Are you arguing about the text or with Calvinism? These verses in no way undermine Calvinism. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you wrote. Could you please rephrase?
I would say there are enough valid points posted within this thread to call Total Inability into question
 

zerinus

Active member
I would say there are enough valid points posted within this thread to call Total Inability into question

And Unconditional Election. If Unconditional Election is true, then the people of Tyre and Sidon, and Sodom and Gomorrah could not have been "saved," unless they had been unconditionally elected; and if they had been unconditionally elected, they could not have been damned neither; which falsifies the words of Jesus.

And Limited Atonement. If Limited Atonement is true, then the people of Tyre and Sidon, and Sodom and Gomorrah could not have been "saved," unless their sins had been atoned for; and if their sins had been atoned for (accordingtoCalvinism), they could not have been damned neither; which falsifies the words of Jesus.

And Irresistible Grace. If Irresistible Grace is true, then the people of Tyre and Sidon, and Sodom and Gomorrah could not have been "saved," unless they had been granted Irresistible Grace; and if they had been granted Irresistible Grace, they could not have been damned neither; which falsifies the words of Jesus.

And Perseverance of the Saints. If Perseverance of the Saints is true, then the people of Tyre and Sidon, and Sodom and Gomorrah could not have been "saved," unless they had been granted Perseverance of the Saints; and if they had been granted Perseverance of the Saints, they could not have been damned neither; which falsifies the words of Jesus.

And Predestination. If Predestination is true, then the people of Tyre and Sidon, and Sodom and Gomorrah could not have been "saved," unless they had been predestined to; and if they had been predestined to, they could not have been damned neither; which again falsifies the words of Jesus.

Either Calvinism is false, or Jesus is lying; they can't both be true at the same time.
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
And Unconditional Election. If Unconditional Election is true, then the people of Tyre and Sidon, and Sodom and Gomorrah could not have been "saved," unless they had been unconditionally elected; and if they had been unconditionally elected, they could not have been damned neither; which falsifies the words of Jesus.

And Limited Atonement. If Limited Atonement is true, then the people of Tyre and Sidon, and Sodom and Gomorrah could not have been "saved," unless their sins had been atoned for; and if their sins had been atoned for (accordingtoCalvinism), they could not have been damned neither; which falsifies the words of Jesus.

And Irresistible Grace. If Irresistible Grace is true, then the people of Tyre and Sidon, and Sodom and Gomorrah could not have been "saved," unless they had been granted Irresistible Grace; and if they had been granted Irresistible Grace, they could not have been damned neither; which falsifies the words of Jesus.

And Perseverance of the Saints. If Perseverance of the Saints is true, then the people of Tyre and Sidon, and Sodom and Gomorrah could not have been "saved," unless they had been granted Perseverance of the Saints; and if they had been granted Perseverance of the Saints, they could not have been damned neither; which falsifies the words of Jesus.

And Predestination. If Predestination is true, then the people of Tyre and Sidon, and Sodom and Gomorrah could not have been "saved," unless they had been predestined to; and if they had been predestined to, they could not have been damned neither; which again falsifies the words of Jesus.

Either Calvinism is false, or Jesus is lying; they can't both be true at the same time.
I think it best to limit the verses posted to the issue of Total inability

Other scriptures can be brought to bear on other points

The passages concerning Chorazin and Bethsaida do not say they would have been eternally saved

and repentance without a means of atonement accomplishes nothing
 

zerinus

Active member
I think it best to limit the verses posted to the issue of Total inability

Other scriptures can be brought to bear on other points
Do you have a refutation for the other points I have raised? If not, then they stand.
The passages concerning Chorazin and Bethsaida do not say they would have been eternally saved
If they had repented, they would have been saved---unless they reneged on their repentance, and sinned again.
and repentance without a means of atonement accomplishes nothing
That is a given. And repentance always leads to salvation---unless it is reneged upon, without genuine repentance.
 

civic

Active member
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matt. 11:21)

Added bonus: even Sodom would have repented had they seen the same miracles!

"And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (Matt 11:23)

It seems to me that if the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is true, then neither of these scenarios would have actually happened since (in the Calvinistic scheme of things) the non-elect have no ability to respond favorably to any outward call of the gospel; they don't have the inner regeneration of the Holy Spirit causing them to respond favorably.
Its not just Calvin but also Arminius taught T.D. and agrees with Calvin

Arminius further writes,

“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” 7
hope this helps !!!
 

CrowCross

Active member
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matt. 11:21)

Added bonus: even Sodom would have repented had they seen the same miracles!

"And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (Matt 11:23)

It seems to me that if the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is true, then neither of these scenarios would have actually happened since (in the Calvinistic scheme of things) the non-elect have no ability to respond favorably to any outward call of the gospel; they don't have the inner regeneration of the Holy Spirit causing them to respond favorably.
John 6:65
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
 
John 6:65
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
That verse is best explained by the fact that, prior to the resurrection of Christ, the fullness of the Gospel was not openly proclaimed and thus could only be realized by divine revelation. That isn't true now.
 

civic

Active member
That verse is best explained by the fact that, prior to the resurrection of Christ, the fullness of the Gospel was not openly proclaimed and thus could only be realized by divine revelation. That isn't true now.
So you are saying the gospel of Jesus and the Apostles prior to His Resurrection is different post Resurrection ?
 

CrowCross

Active member
That verse is best explained by the fact that, prior to the resurrection of Christ, the fullness of the Gospel was not openly proclaimed and thus could only be realized by divine revelation. That isn't true now.
Then why did you try to use pre-resurrection verses and accounts to prove your point?
 
So you are saying the gospel of Jesus and the Apostles prior to His Resurrection is different post Resurrection ?
Yes. The gospel preached prior to His resurrection is the gospel of the kingdom, i.e. the message that the earthly kingdom of God is near and that people needed to prepare themselves to be worthy to enter it (Mark 1:14-15). After His resurrection, Paul describes the gospel as being the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for our sins (1 Cor. 15:1-8). These details could not have been known beforehand except through divine revelation, as Jesus did not proclaim them openly (and His disciples didn't even understand what He was saying when He told them about it privately). In fact, the gospel that Paul preached could not have been revealed beforehand since he says the rulers of this age would not have crucified Jesus if they had known about it (1 Cor. 2:8).
 
As an addendum to my above response: I believe that the gospel we are presently called to proclaim is inclusive of BOTH the pre-resurrection and post-resurrection gospel messages. That earthly kingdom of God that was proclaimed pre-resurrection is still going to happen, and people need to prepare themselves to be worthy of it when it comes (including those who have already trusted Christ for their eternal salvation).
 
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