The "T" in TULIP - refuted in one verse.

TomFL

Well-known member
Why do I need to "address" them?
I already believe them!
If you believed un these verses you would not believe in total inability

Deuteronomy 30:11–16 (ESV)

The Choice of Life and Death
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.



John 12:40 (KJV 1900)
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13:15 (KJV 1900)
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Total inability would make all those impossible
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
If you believed un these verses you would not believe in total inability

Sorry, but that's a non sequitur.
(That's Latin for "it does not follow".)

If you think it does, then you need to EXPLAIN how it does.
And despite the fact that I have challenged you to do this at LEAST 5 times, you refuse to do so.

So I must simply conclude that you're wrong.

]Total inability would make all those impossible

Prove it. :)
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Sorry, but that's a non sequitur.
(That's Latin for "it does not follow".)

If you think it does, then you need to EXPLAIN how it does.
And despite the fact that I have challenged you to do this at LEAST 5 times, you refuse to do so.

So I must simply conclude that you're wrong.



Prove it. :)
Already did

And you failed to address the proof

Deuteronomy 30:11–16 (ESV)

The Choice of Life and Death
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.



John 12:40 (KJV 1900)
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13:15 (KJV 1900)
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Total inability would make all those impossible
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Already did

And you failed to address the proof

Deuteronomy 30:11–16 (ESV)

The Choice of Life and Death
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.



John 12:40 (KJV 1900)
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13:15 (KJV 1900)
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Total inability would make all those impossible

Prove it.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Prove it.
Its already been proven you did not address it

And you failed to address the proof

Deuteronomy 30:11–16 (ESV)

The Choice of Life and Death
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

Why does God state it is not too hard for them to obey God's command ?

Why does he say they can do it ?

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13:15 (KJV 1900)
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Why does God blind eyes that cannot see

why does he harden a heart which is unable to respond to him in any positive manner

Why does God speak of them seeing if they had not closed their eyes

These are are questions you do not answer


Total inability would make all those impossible
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Its already been proven you did not address it

And you failed to address the proof

Deuteronomy 30:11–16 (ESV)

The Choice of Life and Death
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

Why does God state it is not too hard for them to obey God's command ?

Why does he say they can do it ?

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13:15 (KJV 1900)
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Why does God blind eyes that cannot see

why does he harden a heart which is unable to respond to him in any positive manner

Why does God speak of them seeing if they had not closed their eyes

These are are questions you do not answer


Total inability would make all those impossible

Ironically, this just appeared on my Facebook wall:


Make it a habit to let other people have the last word.
It’ll do wonders for your relationships.
It’ll increase your respectability in the eyes of most.

It’ll keep you from wasting time on going-nowhere arguments.


Good advice. :)
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Ironically, this just appeared on my Facebook wall:


Make it a habit to let other people have the last word.
It’ll do wonders for your relationships.
It’ll increase your respectability in the eyes of most.

It’ll keep you from wasting time on going-nowhere arguments.


Good advice. :)
You are running away without ever addressing the argument

And you failed to address the proof

Deuteronomy 30:11–16 (ESV)

The Choice of Life and Death
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

Why does God state it is not too hard for them to obey God's command ?

Why does he say they can do it ?

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13:15 (KJV 1900)
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Why does God blind eyes that cannot see

why does he harden a heart which is unable to respond to him in any positive manner

Why does God speak of them seeing if they had not closed their eyes

These are are questions you do not answer


Total inability would make all those impossible

...................................................................

and one excuse is as good as the other I suppose
 

Thistle

Well-known member
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matt. 11:21)

Added bonus: even Sodom would have repented had they seen the same miracles!

"And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (Matt 11:23)

It seems to me that if the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is true, then neither of these scenarios would have actually happened since (in the Calvinistic scheme of things) the non-elect have no ability to respond favorably to any outward call of the gospel; they don't have the inner regeneration of the Holy Spirit causing them to respond favorably.
This apparently has gotten some attention, you have 14 pages of responses, so far and, counting. Yes those verses show classic middle knowledge. I guess the Molinist are correct after all. Well, Calvinism was a great ride while it lasted.
 

Septextura

Active member
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matt. 11:21)

Keep reading.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Welcome to Calvinism.
 

zerinus

Active member
Keep reading.

Matthew 11:25

Welcome to Calvinism.
You are ignoring the wider context:

Luke 10:

17 And the seventy [whom Jesus had sent] returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.


Jesus was addressing that to his disciples, who were very ordinary kind of people, without the learning and erudition that the scribes, Pharisees, lawyers, and other religious and civic leaders of the people had at that time. Compared to them, his disciples and followers were "babes," as far as the wisdom, learning, and erudition of the time was concerned. But because of their faith in Jesus Christ, they were wiser and smarter than any of them, and could do and accomplish things that none of them could do. It doesn't mean that they were "predestined," or that they had been "unconditionally elected," or any of the other crap that the heresy of Calvinism likes to add to it.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
This apparently has gotten some attention, you have 14 pages of responses, so far and, counting. Yes those verses show classic middle knowledge. I guess the Molinist are correct after all. Well, Calvinism was a great ride while it lasted.
One can affirm middle knowledge without being a Molinist
 

Thistle

Well-known member
Middle knowledge ?

If I recall correctly some at CARM had previously opposed it
I don't spend enough time on this forum to have a good feel for that. The verses in the OP present middle knowledge [counter-factuals] as real knowledge that Jesus is claiming to know. I take that as literally true. I believe that makes me a Molinist.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I don't spend enough time on this forum to have a good feel for that. The verses in the OP present middle knowledge [counter-factuals] as real knowledge that Jesus is claiming to know. I take that as literally true. I believe that makes me a Molinist.
To be a Molinism in addition to middle knowledge you need to affirm Natural knowledge and free knowledge and that God used that knowledge to activate the world which was most consistent with his desires

BTW Matt Slick owner of this forum a Calvinist affirms middle knowledge

Molinists generally affirm Libertarian Free Will

Matt Slick & Calvinists do not

Also Calvinist affirm God sovereignly decreed all that would happen without any consideration of what man might do

So unless they change their views on the decree of God they could not be Molinist
 

Thistle

Well-known member
To be a Molinism in addition to middle knowledge you need to affirm Natural knowledge and free knowledge and that God used that knowledge to activate the world which was most consistent with his desires

BTW Matt Slick owner of this forum a Calvinist affirms middle knowledge
That is interesting.
Molinists generally affirm Libertarian Free Will
I do.
Matt Slick & Calvinists do not
That sounds about right.
Also Calvinist affirm God sovereignly decreed all that would happen without any consideration of what man might do

So unless they change their views on the decree of God they could not be Molinist
Calvinists as thorough going Theological Determinists, that makes perfect sense to me.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Already did

And you failed to address the proof

Deuteronomy 30:11–16 (ESV)

The Choice of Life and Death
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.



John 12:40 (KJV 1900)
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13:15 (KJV 1900)
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Total inability would make all those impossible
Deut 30 has nothing to do with Salvation by Grace through Jesus Christ. It's to national Israel under a national earthly non spiritual covenant. You wasting spàce!
 
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