The "T" in TULIP - refuted in one verse.

TomFL

Well-known member
Answered plenty of times. Man is spiritually dead without spiritual life and therefore without spiritual ability!
Sorry that does not answer it

Man has a spirit

The bible says it knows what is inside the man

how can a dead unconscious spirit know anything ?

Dead speaks of separation from God not a corpse like state

Spiritually dead men may hate God

but if dead here requires a corpse like state hate would be impossible
 

Theophilos

Member
Another passage

Deuteronomy 30:11–16 (ESV)

The Choice of Life and Death
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

Similar to the verse you quote

John 12:40 (KJV 1900)
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13:15 (KJV 1900)
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Here is a similar verse from Acts that shows that even pagans can seek God:

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:26-27
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Here is a similar verse from Acts that shows that even pagans can seek God:

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:26-27
Yes

God takes steps to have men seek him and they sometimes do
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Here is a similar verse from Acts that shows that even pagans can seek God:

From one man he made all the nations, that fr they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:26-27

Here is a similar verse from Acts that shows that even pagans can seek God:

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:26-2
Here is a similar verse from Acts that shows that even pagans can seek God:

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:26-27

Here is a similar verse from Acts that shows that even pagans can seek God:

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:26-27
Man naturally does not seek after the True God Rom 3:11

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Error indeed and not in scripture
LOL

this is scripture

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:26-27

better get your nose out of your theology and into the bible
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
LOL

this is scripture

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:26-27

better get your nose out of your theology and into the bible
That's talking about the Sheep. Them born of God . Only the born again are Gods offspring.

Man naturally does not seek after God Rom 3 11 they're dead in sin and dead to God
 

TomFL

Well-known member
That's talking about the Sheep. Them born of God . Only the born again are Gods offspring.

Man naturally does not seek after God Rom 3 11 they're dead in sin and dead to God
Sheep are not mentioned

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:26-27
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Sheep are not mentioned

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:26-27
Sheep are meant.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Sheep are meant.

You provide no proof of your claim

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:26-27
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
You provide no proof of your claim

From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:26-27
Christ only died for His Sheep. Man naturally does not seek God Rom 3
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Christ only died for His Sheep. Man naturally does not seek God Rom 3
Sorry Christ died for all

John 6:51 (KJV 1900)
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Romans 5:18 (KJV 1900)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900)
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1 Timothy 2:4–6 (KJV 1900)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Hebrews 2:9 (KJV 1900)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 11:51 (KJV 1900)
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;



and men seeking God

2 Chr. 11:16 —KJV
“And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.”

2 Chr. 19:3 —KJV
“Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God.”

2 Chr. 20:3 —KJV
“And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.”

2 Chr. 20:4 —KJV
“And Judah gathered themselves together, to ask help of the LORD: even out of all the cities of Judah they came to seek the LORD.”

2 Chr. 34:3 —KJV
“For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images.”

Acts 17:26–27 —KJV
“And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him,”
 

Theophilos

Member
Sorry Christ died for all

John 6:51 (KJV 1900)
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Romans 5:18 (KJV 1900)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

2 Corinthians 5:14–15 (KJV 1900)
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1 Timothy 2:4–6 (KJV 1900)
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Hebrews 2:9 (KJV 1900)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 11:51 (KJV 1900)
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;



and men seeking God

2 Chr. 11:16 —KJV
“And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.”

2 Chr. 19:3 —KJV
“Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God.”

2 Chr. 20:3 —KJV
“And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.”

2 Chr. 20:4 —KJV
“And Judah gathered themselves together, to ask help of the LORD: even out of all the cities of Judah they came to seek the LORD.”

2 Chr. 34:3 —KJV
“For in the eighth year of his reign, while he was yet young, he began to seek after the God of David his father: and in the twelfth year he began to purge Judah and Jerusalem from the high places, and the groves, and the carved images, and the molten images.”

Acts 17:26–27 —KJV
“And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him,”
Good points. My observation is that Calvinist understanding of "all" appears to have basic contradictions.

In the case of God "wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim 2:4, all means only all of the elect.

In the case of "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23, all means every person in the world.

My understanding is that both verses refer to everyone.
 
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TomFL

Well-known member
Good points. My observation is that that Calvinist understanding of "all" appears to have basic contradictions.

In the case of God "wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim 2:4, all means only all of the elect.

In the case of "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23, all means every person in the world.

My understanding is that both verses refer to everyone.
I agree

Calvinist interpretation here appears to be one of what is convenient for their theology in my opinion
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Good points. My observation is that Calvinist understanding of "all" appears to have basic contradictions.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to MISREPRESENT Calvinism by introducing these straw-man arguments.

NOBODY is claiming that "all" means "some".
NOBODY is claiming that "all" means "the elect".
It doesn't.
And NO CALVINIST has ever claimed that it does.

If you disagree, then you need to QUOTE where any Calvinist has explicitly said, "all means elect".



We are talking about a verse that talks about "all people" ("παντας ανθρωπους").
The issue is NOT with the meaning of "all".
The issue is with the meaning of "people".
Your side thinks "people" means "individuals", "all individuals" (which is does NOT say).
We believe "people" refers to groups/classes of people.

As we see in other passages:

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every ["πας"] kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Notice that it is the GROUPS that are described by "every" ("every kindred", "every tongue", "every people", "every nation"), not the individuals themselves.

Indeed the individuals who were redeemed were taken OUT OF all those groups.
So not "everyone" was redeemed.
But the redeemed come from ALL nations, from ALL tongues, etc.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I'm not sure why you feel the need to MISREPRESENT Calvinism by introducing these straw-man arguments.

NOBODY is claiming that "all" means "some".
NOBODY is claiming that "all" means "the elect".
It doesn't.
And NO CALVINIST has ever claimed that it does.

If you disagree, then you need to QUOTE where any Calvinist has explicitly said, "all means elect".



We are talking about a verse that talks about "all people" ("παντας ανθρωπους").
The issue is NOT with the meaning of "all".
The issue is with the meaning of "people".
Your side thinks "people" means "individuals", "all individuals" (which is does NOT say).
We believe "people" refers to groups/classes of people.

As we see in other passages:

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every ["πας"] kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Notice that it is the GROUPS that are described by "every" ("every kindred", "every tongue", "every people", "every nation"), not the individuals themselves.

Indeed the individuals who were redeemed were taken OUT OF all those groups.
So not "everyone" was redeemed.
But the redeemed come from ALL nations, from ALL tongues, etc.
But bottomline that is what your theology requires

1 Timothy 2:1–6 (KJV 1900)
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
 
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