The "T" in TULIP - refuted in one verse.

civic

Well-known member
Yes. The gospel preached prior to His resurrection is the gospel of the kingdom, i.e. the message that the earthly kingdom of God is near and that people needed to prepare themselves to be worthy to enter it (Mark 1:14-15). After His resurrection, Paul describes the gospel as being the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for our sins (1 Cor. 15:1-8). These details could not have been known beforehand except through divine revelation, as Jesus did not proclaim them openly (and His disciples didn't even understand what He was saying when He told them about it privately). In fact, the gospel that Paul preached could not have been revealed beforehand since he says the rulers of this age would not have crucified Jesus if they had known about it (1 Cor. 2:8).
That tells me that you believe in different gospels about a different Jesus. Its the same gospel and same Jesus as there is only One Gospel and One Christ/Lord. Jesus did not give Paul a different gospel than He did His other disciples.

There is One God
There is One Lord
There is One Faith
There is One Baptism
There is One Jesus
There is only One way to God
There is One Savior
There is only One Church
There is only One body of Christ

And there is One Gospel

Galatians 1:6
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

So since there is only One God, One Savior, One way to God through Christ, One faith, One baptism and One Gospel- there is only one way to be saved.

Paul defines that Gospel by which we are saved below:

1 Corinthians 15:1-19
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Only One way to be saved, by One Person, One Gospel and One Faith. In Him alone. Scripture is really very exclusive here but inclusive to all that come to Him freely!

Revelation 14:6
Then I saw another angel flying overhead, with the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation and tribe and tongue and people

Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Jesus passed on the gospel to His Disciples. Its the same Gospel but Christ had not suffered, died, risen yet.

hope this helps !!!
 
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zerinus

Well-known member
John 6:65
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
That ignores verses 44 and 45:

John 6:

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
* * *
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


"Learning of the Father" comes first, followed by coming to Jesus.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
That ignores verses 44 and 45:

John 6:

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
* * *
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


"Learning of the Father" comes first, followed by coming to Jesus.
It complements it....as you quoted....Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me......

Have you noticed the need for the Father to act?
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Provided the Father grants them the ability.
According to Calvinism, not the Bible.
It complements it....as you quoted....Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me......

Have you noticed the need for the Father to act?
No, the initiative comes from the believer. The Father is willing to teach all men. Some choose to learn from him, and some don't; and when they do, the Father leads them to Christ. You are reading it backwards.
 
That tells me that you believe in different gospels about a different Jesus. Its the same gospel and same Jesus as there is only One Gospel and One Christ/Lord. Jesus did not give Paul a different gospel than He did His other disciples.
As I said in my subsequent post, I believe that the gospel we presently proclaim is fully inclusive of the pre-resurrection gospel message (it also, apparently, includes the performing of signs and wonders by us according to Mark 16:17-18 and Romans 15:19).

 

TomFL

Well-known member
Do you have a refutation for the other points I have raised? If not, then they stand.

If they had repented, they would have been saved---unless they reneged on their repentance, and sinned again.

That is a given. And repentance always leads to salvation---unless it is reneged upon, without genuine repentance.
It was already stated

The passages concerning Chorazin and Bethsaida do not say they would have been eternally saved

and repentance without a means of atonement accomplishes nothing

Repentance is only effective because an atonement has been made

no atonement no salvation

This does not mean I think the all the other points of tulip are correct just that I do not think this is best way to address them
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
According to Calvinism, not the Bible.

No, the initiative comes from the believer. The Father is willing to teach all men. Some choose to learn from him, and some don't; and when they do, the Father leads them to Christ. You are reading it backwards.

I quoted the bible...not Calvin
 

zerinus

Well-known member
It was already stated
It wasn't.
The passages concerning Chorazin and Bethsaida do not say they would have been eternally saved
You mean temporarily saved?!? Proof text please.
and repentance without a means of atonement accomplishes nothing
Which is a non sequitur, and a red herring.
Repentance is only effective because an atonement has been made
It is? How amazing! I would have never guessed.
no atonement no salvation
Wow! That is a profaned statement. How did you learn to be so smart?
This does not mean I think the all the other points of tulip are correct just that I do not think this is best way to address them
And I say that you are wrong. My post is self-explanatory. No further comment is required.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Duplicate post, crazy forum software!
many dupilcates
It wasn't.

You mean temporarily saved?!? Proof text please.

Which is a non sequitur, and a red herring.

It is? How amazing! I would have never guessed.

Wow! That is a profaned statement. How did you learn to be so smart?

And I say that you are wrong. My post is self-explanatory. No further comment is required.
No I did not say temporarily saved

I noted the text says nothing at all about being saved

That's obvious and does not require proof

and seeing as you admit no atonement allows for no salvation

you have no proof at all against limited atonement

There is an argument against total inability presented in thread

and other arguments against limited atonement I believe persausive

but not these

You are entitled to your opinion but your opinion does not rise to the level of fact
 

e v e

Well-known member
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matt. 11:21)

Added bonus: even Sodom would have repented had they seen the same miracles!

"And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (Matt 11:23)

It seems to me that if the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is true, then neither of these scenarios would have actually happened since (in the Calvinistic scheme of things) the non-elect have no ability to respond favorably to any outward call of the gospel; they don't have the inner regeneration of the Holy Spirit causing them to respond favorably.
the problem with calvinism is that it’s forgotten that the depravity is the carnal Self ... a false situation the soul must die to... and that does mean the soul needs to try, and to separate herself from this world. That is no easy job and is why the 10 commandments were needed... so vile is the Self.

But the soul needs to continuously stay with Him. It’s not “i’m already saved.”

calvinism sees the self and soul as one entity...

which means the soul would be depraved and (totally passive) unable to cooperate with God.

also, in terms of all to be saved souls, the elect have been turned into a fetish and the meaning of that twisted to suit the ego.

the elect are the 144k, who will go the change first, and are no different as any soul of His except in that they serve all His souls , by going first, and that after the Change will help Him bring many more souls to Him.

the same with apostles, prophets... all souls of His but having different jobs.

in these days the elect has been turned into something to suit the ego and as a term mixed up.
 
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praise_yeshua

Active member
No valid points at all. Are you arguing about the text or with Calvinism? These verses in no way undermine Calvinism. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you wrote. Could you please rephrase?
You understood what he wrote. Everyone did.

Maybe when James White finally gets his degree..... He can help.
 

praise_yeshua

Active member
As an addendum to my above response: I believe that the gospel we are presently called to proclaim is inclusive of BOTH the pre-resurrection and post-resurrection gospel messages. That earthly kingdom of God that was proclaimed pre-resurrection is still going to happen, and people need to prepare themselves to be worthy of it when it comes (including those who have already trusted Christ for their eternal salvation).

The Gospel is the bridge between Spiritual and Carnal/Natural things. The Gospel, in and of itself, has the power to convict and bring men to salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

It is the revelation of faith. The faith of the preacher/proclaimer to his fellow man.

Notice the words of Paul concerning Timothy and the orgin of Timothy's faith.

2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

Is the same passed from Abraham through His descendents.

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
How has the Father granted such?
I would imagine God has several means...One might being what He did with Lydia.

Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Can you think of any other ways?
 

praise_yeshua

Active member
I would imagine God has several means...One might being what He did with Lydia.

Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

Can you think of any other ways?

She already worshipped God. Doesn't seem like a good example for your narrative.

God always works with the smallest of faith.

Did you mean to make that mistake?
 
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