The "T" in TULIP - refuted in one verse.

TomFL

Well-known member
No valid points at all. Are you arguing about the text or with Calvinism? These verses in no way undermine Calvinism. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you wrote. Could you please rephrase?
If Total inability were true those in Chorazin! and Bethsaida! would not be able to repent no matter how many miracles were performed unless they were regenerated
 

zerinus

Well-known member
many dupilcates
The software needs some getting used to, but when you get the hang of it, it is OK.
No I did not say temporarily saved
The alternative to "eternally saved" is "temporarily saved" LOL!
I noted the text says nothing at all about being saved
The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of repentance; and repentance is what leads to salvation:

Luke 5:

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 15:

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 24:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 11:

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto [eternal] life.

2 Corinthians 7:

10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: . . .


The rest of your post is meaningless nonsense, and does not require a further response.
 

e v e

Well-known member
The Gospel is the bridge between Spiritual and Carnal/Natural things. The Gospel, in and of itself, has the power to convict and bring men to salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

It is the revelation of faith. The faith of the preacher/proclaimer to his fellow man.

Notice the words of Paul concerning Timothy and the orgin of Timothy's faith.

2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

Is the same passed from Abraham through His descendents.

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
God is the only one who can bring anyone to Him. The gospel is important, as His Words to Us as best they have been preserved in the very fragile medium of writing and human translation. But factually, He has a real relationship with each soul who He calls to Him, it's a two way street. His sons and daughters CAN hear Him... He did not stop speaking to His souls.
 

e v e

Well-known member
John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, And they will all be taught by God.’
Yes, you and us, we His sons and daughters are all taught by God. "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—"

The only thing on this forum is that I never know what translation or version is being 'quoted'... and always need to go back to the original and translate myself if I have time... but the gist here is right..that His souls are taught by Him.
 

e v e

Well-known member
The software needs some getting used to, but when you get the hang of it, it is OK.

The alternative to "eternally saved" is "temporarily saved" LOL!

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of repentance; and repentance is what leads to salvation:


Luke 5:

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 15:

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 24:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 11:

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto [eternal] life.

2 Corinthians 7:

10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: . . .


The rest of your post is meaningless nonsense, and does not require a further response.
i just view the being saved as part 1... the legal possibility to now be able to go to the Change/ new paradise. But this is often misunderstood as a final point. Whereas the actual going to paradise is the moment of being saved!!, the de facto part 2, that goes with part 1 (which is the legal promise.) A soul still needs to listen to Him and follow His ten commandments.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The software needs some getting used to, but when you get the hang of it, it is OK.

The alternative to "eternally saved" is "temporarily saved" LOL!

The gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of repentance; and repentance is what leads to salvation:


Luke 5:

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 15:

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 24:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 11:

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto [eternal] life.

2 Corinthians 7:

10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: . . .


The rest of your post is meaningless nonsense, and does not require a further response.
Sorry but you are speaking nonsense

How does their repenting show an unlimited atonement ?

You need to prove there was atonement for those who never believe or repent

had they repented (in a Godly manner) they would not be such

Better work on your logic

It appears to be missing
 

Beloved Daughter

Well-known member
You understood what he wrote. Everyone did.

Maybe when James White finally gets his degree..... He can help.

Are you now a mind reader? These verses do not contradict any of the Five Points of reformed theology.

As for your comment regarding Dr. White, this is what people without a valid response resort to. They name-call and belittle others.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
Sorry but you are speaking nonsense
I think not.
How does their repenting show an unlimited atonement?
Meaningless, nonsensical question. I didn't say it does or it doesn't. As far as I am concerned, unlimited atonement is a given. It is not in dispute, and does not need to be proved.
You need to prove there was atonement for those who never believe or repent
I don't need to. From my point of view, that is a given, and the proof is in the Bible.
had they repented (in a Godly manner) they would not be such
No idea what you are talking about.
Better work on your logic
Pot calls kettle.
It appears to be missing
Brain cells apparently, on the other side.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I think not.

Meaningless, nonsensical question. I didn't say it does or it doesn't. As far as I am concerned, unlimited atonement is a given. It is not in dispute, and does not need to be proved.

I don't need to. From my point of view, that is a given, and the proof is in the Bible.

No idea what you are talking about.

Pot calls kettle.

Brain cells apparently, on the other side.
You failed to show how the possibility of their repenting shows an unlimited atonement

you did not do it
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Are you now a mind reader? These verses do not contradict any of the Five Points of reformed theology.

As for your comment regarding Dr. White, this is what people without a valid response resort to. They name-call and belittle others.
Of course they do. Total inability is refuted by the following exanples

Deuteronomy 30:10–20 (ESV) when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

John 12:40 (ESV) ¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Why does God blind those who cannot see harden those born hardened

The possibility of them believing shows it was possible contrary to total inability
 
Of course they do. Total inability is refuted by the following exanples

Deuteronomy 30:10–20 (ESV) when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

John 12:40 (ESV) ¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Why does God blind those who cannot see harden those born hardened

The possibility of them believing shows it was possible contrary to total inability
The possibility is God's grace which is the Word with them that empowers one to hear and do God's will. The flesh can not do anything. The carnal man is hostile to God and can not please him. Only the spiritual man can please God whether before Christ came or after he came. :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The possibility is God's grace which is the Word with them that empowers one to hear and do God's will. The flesh can not do anything. The carnal man is hostile to God and can not please him. Only the spiritual man can please God whether before Christ came or after he came. :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
How do you address the scriptures provided beyond extolling your theology

Deuteronomy 30:10–20 (ESV) when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
¶ “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
¶ “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess.
I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,
loving the LORD your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.”

John 12:40 (ESV) ¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”

Why does God blind those who cannot see harden those born hardened

The possibility of them believing shows it was possible contrary to total inability
 

zerinus

Well-known member
You failed to show how the possibility of their repenting shows an unlimited atonement

you did not do it
I didn't because that was not a question in dispute. Show me why it is, and I will address it for you. You are introducing a red herring as a diversionary tactic; it is not relevant to the discussion we were having.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matt. 11:21)

Added bonus: even Sodom would have repented had they seen the same miracles!

"And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (Matt 11:23)

It seems to me that if the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is true, then neither of these scenarios would have actually happened since (in the Calvinistic scheme of things) the non-elect have no ability to respond favorably to any outward call of the gospel; they don't have the inner regeneration of the Holy Spirit causing them to respond favorably.

Your entire methodology is fallacious.

You can't simply quote one single verse and categorically claim, "This doctrine is false".
What you're doing ignores the other 31,000 verses in the Bible.

Calvinists (and the ECF's) didn't simply "invent" the doctrine of Total Depravity out of whole cloth. They got it from THE BIBLE. And so you have to address THOSE verses as well!

The standard response is, "If it disagrees with my verse, then you must be interpreting it wrong".
But that's fallacious as well, since we can simply point to the TD passages and say, "If your interpretation of Matt. 11:23 contradicts those, then YOUR interpretation of Matt. 11 must be wrong!"

Look, if you think TD is Biblical, if you think you're able to keep the entire law perfectly, then good for you! You can believe whatever you want. And fortunately for you, you don't have to have all your doctrines perfectly correct in order to be saved.

But we have seen, read, and studied Matt. 11:23 (and every other verse of the Bible) ten million times, and you haven't convinced us that TD is wrong.

Sorry.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I didn't because that was not a question in dispute. Show me why it is, and I will address it for you. You are introducing a red herring as a diversionary tactic; it is not relevant to the discussion we were having.
It's not a question in dispute ?

You claimed the verses disproved limited atonement. How can it not be in dispute
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The possibility is God's grace which is the Word with them that empowers one to hear and do God's will. The flesh can not do anything. The carnal man is hostile to God and can not please him. Only the spiritual man can please God whether before Christ came or after he came. :)

God bless you,

SeventhDay
Nothing is stated about God regenerating them

You have to assume what is not stated
 

zerinus

Well-known member
It's not a question in dispute ?

You claimed the verses disproved limited atonement. How can it not be in dispute
I had said that those verses discredit all the elements of TULIP, not just Limited Atonement; and I had explained why. About Limited Atonement I had said the following:

And Limited Atonement. If Limited Atonement is true, then the people of Tyre and Sidon, and Sodom and Gomorrah could not have been "saved," unless their sins had been atoned for; and if their sins had been atoned for (according to Calvinism), they could not have been damned neither; which falsifies the words of Jesus.

That reasoning is clear enough for me. If it is not clear enough for you, the burden is on you to explain why, and do so clearly enough so I can then respond to it to your satisfaction.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
I had said that those verses discredit all the elements of TULIP, not just Limited Atonement; and I had explained why. About Limited Atonement I had said the following:

And Limited Atonement. If Limited Atonement is true, then the people of Tyre and Sidon, and Sodom and Gomorrah could not have been "saved," unless their sins had been atoned for; and if their sins had been atoned for (according to Calvinism), they could not have been damned neither; which falsifies the words of Jesus.

That reasoning is clear enough for me. If it is not clear enough for you, the burden is on you to explain why, and do so clearly enough so I can then respond to it to your satisfaction.
Yes and that would include limited Atonement

they were not in fact saved

And had they been saved then all that is supported is

there is an atonement for those that are saved

Nothing at all supporting limited atonement.

The Logic does not support your claim
 
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