The "T" in TULIP - refuted in one verse.

TomFL

Well-known member
I thought it would be worth starting a new thread on this subject.

I thought it would be worth starting a new thread on this subject.

The verse stands

Rom. 8:9 —KJV
“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”

Rom. 8:11 —KJV
“But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”

1 Cor. 3:16 —KJV
“¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?”

1 Cor. 6:19 —KJV
“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”
 

praise_yeshua

Active member
Are you now a mind reader? These verses do not contradict any of the Five Points of reformed theology.

As for your comment regarding Dr. White, this is what people without a valid response resort to. They name-call and belittle others.

I told the truth. You see what you want to see. He thought so little of his online degrees that HE... is the one seeking a more prestigious source.

That speaks for itself.
 

praise_yeshua

Active member
God is the only one who can bring anyone to Him. The gospel is important, as His Words to Us as best they have been preserved in the very fragile medium of writing and human translation. But factually, He has a real relationship with each soul who He calls to Him, it's a two way street. His sons and daughters CAN hear Him... He did not stop speaking to His souls.

God has given the Gospel to call mankind to Him. That is the work of God....

Please share some Scripture. I don't see that you've done anything but make a statement with any Scriptural backing.

The work of God is defined here...

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Joh 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
Are you now a mind reader? These verses do not contradict any of the Five Points of reformed theology.

As for your comment regarding Dr. White, this is what people without a valid response resort to. They name-call and belittle others.
These do

Total inability contradicted

Deuteronomy 30:11–16 (ESV)

The Choice of Life and Death
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.



John 12:40 (KJV 1900)
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 13:15 (KJV 1900)
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Total inability would make all those impossible

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Matt Slick

CARM President
Staff member
"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matt. 11:21)

Added bonus: even Sodom would have repented had they seen the same miracles!

"And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (Matt 11:23)

It seems to me that if the Calvinist understanding of total depravity is true, then neither of these scenarios would have actually happened since (in the Calvinistic scheme of things) the non-elect have no ability to respond favorably to any outward call of the gospel; they don't have the inner regeneration of the Holy Spirit causing them to respond favorably.
If total depravity is true, how is it stated that Chorazin and Bethsaida would have repented long ago? First, the context is of Jesus denouncing “the cities in which most of His miracles were done,” (Matt. 11:20). Jesus is speaking generically of groups of people, not of individuals. Second, Jesus did not say that their repentance would be salvific especially since Christ had not yet been sacrificed and the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) had not yet been preached. It simply states they would have repented. Third, the self-righteous and false converts can repent of various sins and still be unsaved. For this see the ‘repentant’ Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14 and ‘repentant’ Judas in Matt. 27:3-5. Fourth, does the repentance of the cities, mean that every individual in every city would repent and become Christian? No. It does not. So the statement, “they would have repented long ago,” can’t apply to everyone in the cities. It is a generic statement. Fifth, total depravity does not mean that people cannot intellectually understand spiritual things, extrapolate their consequences, and then repent and stop doing bad things. For example, atheists can understand the concept of the resurrection of Christ yet do not trust in Him. They can repent of theft and lying. But, it does not mean their repentance leads to salvation. Total depravity means that all of what a person is, is touched by sin: body, heart, soul, mind. The results of that total depravity is that, among other things, they cannot come to Christ on their own. This is why Jesus said, No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day,” (John 6:44). And, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father," (John 6:65). So, if the author of the OP wants to use Matthew 11:21 to refute total depravity, then he must, at least, harmonize his position with the clear words of Christ in John 6:44, 65 which undoubtedly supports Total Depravity.
 

TomFL

Well-known member
The results of that total depravity is that, among other things, they cannot come to Christ on their own. This is why Jesus said, No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day,” (John 6:44). And, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father," (John 6:65). So, if the author of the OP wants to use Matthew 11:21 to refute total depravity, then he must, at least, harmonize his position with the clear words of Christ in John 6:44, 65 which undoubtedly supports Total Depravity.
The problem with your claim is it is time bound to the period when Christ came down to the earth to do the Fathers will

John 6:38–40 —ESV
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.””

That generally involved the selection of the Apostles

Israel at that time was in the process of being judicially hardened

John 12:40 —ESV
“¶ “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.””

In addition

Jesus hid truth by speaking in parables

Matt. 13:11–13 —KJV
“He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.”

Drove followers away with difficult teaching

John 6:51–66 —KJV
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.”


This was done to assure the crucifixion

1 Cor. 2:7–8 —KJV
“But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.”

after the cross

John 12:32 —KJV
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

As for the Father's drawing

John 6:45 —KJV
“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
 

praise_yeshua

Active member
Paul was already "zealous toward God" (Acts 22:3); but went about it the wrong way. God corrected his "zeal," and turned it in the right direction.

Paul had long been convicted of his condition. Conviction only works when you believe something. The unbelieving could care less.
 
If total depravity is true, how is it stated that Chorazin and Bethsaida would have repented long ago? First, the context is of Jesus denouncing “the cities in which most of His miracles were done,” (Matt. 11:20). Jesus is speaking generically of groups of people, not of individuals. Second, Jesus did not say that their repentance would be salvific especially since Christ had not yet been sacrificed and the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) had not yet been preached. It simply states they would have repented. Third, the self-righteous and false converts can repent of various sins and still be unsaved. For this see the ‘repentant’ Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14 and ‘repentant’ Judas in Matt. 27:3-5. Fourth, does the repentance of the cities, mean that every individual in every city would repent and become Christian? No. It does not. So the statement, “they would have repented long ago,” can’t apply to everyone in the cities. It is a generic statement. Fifth, total depravity does not mean that people cannot intellectually understand spiritual things, extrapolate their consequences, and then repent and stop doing bad things. For example, atheists can understand the concept of the resurrection of Christ yet do not trust in Him. They can repent of theft and lying. But, it does not mean their repentance leads to salvation. Total depravity means that all of what a person is, is touched by sin: body, heart, soul, mind. The results of that total depravity is that, among other things, they cannot come to Christ on their own. This is why Jesus said, No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day,” (John 6:44). And, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father," (John 6:65). So, if the author of the OP wants to use Matthew 11:21 to refute total depravity, then he must, at least, harmonize his position with the clear words of Christ in John 6:44, 65 which undoubtedly supports Total Depravity.
Thanks for your detailed response! My understanding of Jesus' words in John 6 is that they are best understood in light of the fact that, prior to His death, burial, and resurrection, the gospel was not known apart from direct revelation. Jesus did not explicitly teach the gospel in all its fullness to anyone other than His disciples; and even when He told them what was going to happen, they had trouble comprehending it (Mark 9:10, 32). The first record we have of the gospel that we currently preach being proclaimed to people in general is Peter's sermon in Acts 2. Indeed, if the rulers of this age had known in advance what would happen, Paul says they wouldn't have crucified Jesus to begin with (1 Cor. 2:8). So it was necessary that mankind remain ignorant of the primary purpose behind Christ's coming until after He fulfilled His earthly ministry.

From our perspective as people who live during the age in which the gospel is openly proclaimed, it is not necessary (generally speaking) for God to give anyone a direct revelation in order for them to know the gospel. I won't limit God in this regard (He reveals Himself via dreams to Muslims in the Islamic world without any apparent initiative on their part), but this sort of direct revelation isn't universally necessary today.

See also: John 12:32 and John 1:9. Jesus (in some mysterious way) both draws every man, and gives light to every man.

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
"That was the true light which gives light to every man coming into the world."

As for your five points regarding the text I referenced, I suppose we just disagree on whether their repentance would have been salvific. I particularly have a hard time believing that if Sodom's repentance would have sustained that city until Jesus' day that at least some of its residents wouldn't have been saved.
 
So God looks for good qualities and actions in a person before he appears to them and regenerates them. Not the Gospel I understand, at any rate.
It's not far off either. "Then Peter opened his mouth and said: 'In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.'" (Acts 10:34-35)
 
It's not far off either. "Then Peter opened his mouth and said: 'In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.'" (Acts 10:34-35)
No worries, friend. I do admire you two for holding to what you believe and not trying to play both sides of the fence. I commend you to it. For me, it's Christ alone.
 

zerinus

Well-known member
If total depravity is true, how is it stated that Chorazin and Bethsaida would have repented long ago? First, the context is of Jesus denouncing “the cities in which most of His miracles were done,” (Matt. 11:20).
I think you meant to say Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom would have repented. He is condemning Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum (who had seen his miracles) for not repenting, as those other cities would have, if they had seen his miracles as they had. (Matt. 11:21-23)
Jesus is speaking generically of groups of people, not of individuals. Second, Jesus did not say that their repentance would be salvific especially since Christ had not yet been sacrificed and the gospel (1 Cor. 15:1-4) had not yet been preached. It simply states they would have repented.
Genuine repentance has always been salvific, throughout the entirety of biblical history, Old and New Testaments.

Ezekiel 18:

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
• • •
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 33:

11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
• • •
14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.


Nineveh is a good example.
Third, the self-righteous and false converts can repent of various sins and still be unsaved. For this see the ‘repentant’ Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14 and ‘repentant’ Judas in Matt. 27:3-5.
That is not an issue. When the Bible says that the repentant will be saved, the reference is obviously to genuine and sincere repentance, not fake or insincere repentance.
Fourth, does the repentance of the cities, mean that every individual in every city would repent and become Christian? No. It does not. So the statement, “they would have repented long ago,” can’t apply to everyone in the cities. It is a generic statement.
Again, that is not an issue. When the people of Nineveh had repented at the preaching of Jonah, and thus spared destruction, does that mean that every single Ninevehite had repented? Probably not; but the great majority of them had, and that was sufficient to spare the city from destruction.
Fifth, total depravity does not mean that people cannot intellectually understand spiritual things, extrapolate their consequences, and then repent and stop doing bad things. For example, atheists can understand the concept of the resurrection of Christ yet do not trust in Him. They can repent of theft and lying. But, it does not mean their repentance leads to salvation. Total depravity means that all of what a person is, is touched by sin: body, heart, soul, mind. The results of that total depravity is that, among other things, they cannot come to Christ on their own. This is why Jesus said, No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day,” (John 6:44). And, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father," (John 6:65). So, if the author of the OP wants to use Matthew 11:21 to refute total depravity, then he must, at least, harmonize his position with the clear words of Christ in John 6:44, 65 which undoubtedly supports Total Depravity.
The OP's point was that if the words of Jesus were true, that the ancient wicked cities of Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom would have "repented" had they seen his miracles (which would have been salvific), without needing first to be "regenerated," then the concept Total Depravity (and other TULIP principles) could not hold true, and that is a valid argument.
 
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