The Teaching Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church

Nondenom40

Super Member
"No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside of the Catholic Church, one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing "Alleluia", and one can reply "Amen", one can have faith in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost and preach it too but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church."

~ St. Augustine of Hippo {Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)
This statement is simply absurd;
one can have faith in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost and preach it too but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church

If augustine said that then that's a huge error on his part. Unless there's some context missing. You'll never find those words in the bible. It's the exact opposite. Our salvation is found in the person of Jesus; Acts 4:12. Not the church and certainly not your church.
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
This statement is simply absurd;


If augustine said that then that's a huge error on his part. Unless there's some context missing. You'll never find those words in the bible. It's the exact opposite. Our salvation is found in the person. Of Jesus; Acts 4:12. Not the church and certainly not your church.
Yes that statement is completely asinine. Salvation is in Jesus, not in an institution.
 

balshan

Well-known member
Interesting link, but I note one mistake: the Vatican did not exist for nearly 2000 years. It replaced the Lateran Palace after it burned, though I do not remember the year. Also the RCC as it exists today did not exist nearly 2000 years ago; it took centuries for it to evolve into the bloated organization it is today.
I only wanted to make a point about Leo's spending. I don't believe it is even that long as I don't think it came into existence that early as an institution, either.
 

Buzzard

Active member
"No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside of the Catholic Church, one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing "Alleluia", and one can reply "Amen", one can have faith in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost and preach it too but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church."

~ St. Augustine of Hippo {Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)
The problem with the ECF's
They were steeped in all the Beliefs, Customs, and Philosophy of the Educated Greeks
mostly jst Philosophers, and as Daniel says
the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers,
ect. ect. ect.
and just 😈 Wanna- be Teachers 😈 of the Law
but yet knew nothing of Moses or the Prophets

Have you never read ??????
Ye worship ye know not what:
we know what we worship:
for salvation is of the Jews.

The message of Salvation was given to the Jews,
not to the Gentiles

they, the Chosen" were to take the message to the 4 winds of Heaven;
too the uttemost most parts of the Earth

Augustine was not one of them
 

Bonnie

Super Member
I only wanted to make a point about Leo's spending. I don't believe it is even that long as I don't think it came into existence that early as an institution, either.
Oh, the author made the mistake, not you. :) I could see bankrupting the Vatican for charity, to help people...but for art works and buildings?
 

balshan

Well-known member
Oh, the author made the mistake, not you. :) I could see bankrupting the Vatican for charity, to help people...but for art works and buildings?
I agree. What bank account did Jesus use? What artwork did Jesus have? I mean they claim they follow Jesus and the apostles, I don't think so.

But then some think wealth is a continuation of Jesus:

Тhе Саthоlіс Сhurсh іѕ thе lаrgеѕt аnd tорmоѕt Сhrіѕtіаn оrgаnіzаtіоn whісh hаѕ аn еѕtіmаtеd wеаlth mоrе thаn $30 bіllіоn. Еѕtіmаtіоn оf іtѕ nеt wоrth соmеѕ frоm thеіr оwnеrѕhір оf рrореrtіеѕ іnсludіng сhurсhеѕ, ѕсhооlѕ, рrеѕbуtеrіеѕ, hоѕріtаlѕ, nurѕіng hоmеѕ, оffісеѕ, tеnnіѕ соurtѕ аnd tеlерhоnе tоwеrѕ. Араrt frоm thеѕе, Саthоlіс Dеvеlорmеnt Fundѕ, Саthоlіс Сhurсh Іnѕurаnсе, Ѕuреrаnnuаtіоn, аnd tеlесоmmunісаtіоnѕ аrе thе rеѕоurсе оf thеіr wеаlth. Іt hаѕ bееn соnѕіdеrеd аѕ thе аuthеntіс соntіnuаtіоn оf Јеѕuѕ Сhrіѕt.


This does not state what its turnover is.
 
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Mysterium Fidei

Active member
I have that. Can you be more specific? You made the claim. Point me to Luther himself where he did this, changed doctrine on a whim.
Yeah, I have it too. It's available online. The volumes are used in a (real) Catholic seminary to teach the heresies of Protestantism, Luther and the other "reformers."

Luther was fine with the sacrament of confession until he found out that many Catholic priests were telling their penitents in the confessional not to read Luther's writings. He then changed his theological position on the sacrament of penance and decided it was an institution created by man and was no longer needed.

Luther openly acknowledged the rapid decline in morals that his new religion was bringing about: "Luther quite candidly admitted the distressing state of things described above without in the least glossing it over, which indeed he could not well have done ; in fact, his own statements
give us an even clearer insight into the seamy side of life in his day. He speaks of the growing disorders with pain and vexation ; the more so since he could not but see that they were being fomented by his doctrine of justification by faith alone. "This preaching,"; he says, "ought by rights to be accepted and listened to with great joy, and everyone ought to improve himself thereby and become more pious. But, unfortunately, the reverse is now the case and the longer it endures the worse the world becomes ; this is [the work of] the devil himself, for now we see the people becoming more infamous, more avaricious, more unmerciful, more unchaste and in every way worse than they were under Popery."


Luther's own words.
 

Buzzard

Active member
Yeah, I have it too. It's available online. The volumes are used in a (real) Catholic seminary to teach the heresies of Protestantism, Luther and the other "reformers."

Luther was fine with the sacrament of confession until he found out that many Catholic priests were telling their penitents in the confessional not to read Luther's writings. He then changed his theological position on the sacrament of penance and decided it was an institution created by man and was no longer needed.

Luther openly acknowledged the rapid decline in morals that his new religion was bringing about: "Luther quite candidly admitted the distressing state of things described above without in the least glossing it over, which indeed he could not well have done ; in fact, his own statements
give us an even clearer insight into the seamy side of life in his day. He speaks of the growing disorders with pain and vexation ; the more so since he could not but see that they were being fomented by his doctrine of justification by faith alone. "This preaching,"; he says, "ought by rights to be accepted and listened to with great joy, and everyone ought to improve himself thereby and become more pious. But, unfortunately, the reverse is now the case and the longer it endures the worse the world becomes ; this is [the work of] the devil himself, for now we see the people becoming more infamous, more avaricious, more unmerciful, more unchaste and in every way worse than they were under Popery."


Luther's own words.

It was created by the "Church of the Romans" to spi on people for the Beast;
it will happen again soon also
RCC and Protestant.
the protestants won't do it in a confessional, but the results will be the same

Lk.12:3
Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness
shall be heard in the light;
and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets
shall be proclaimed
upon the housetops.

and False Witness will abound,
every mans voice against his neighbor

Social Medea today is a good example
 

Nondenom40

Super Member
Yeah, I have it too. It's available online. The volumes are used in a (real) Catholic seminary to teach the heresies of Protestantism, Luther and the other "reformers."

Luther was fine with the sacrament of confession until he found out that many Catholic priests were telling their penitents in the confessional not to read Luther's writings. He then changed his theological position on the sacrament of penance and decided it was an institution created by man and was no longer needed.

Luther openly acknowledged the rapid decline in morals that his new religion was bringing about: "Luther quite candidly admitted the distressing state of things described above without in the least glossing it over, which indeed he could not well have done ; in fact, his own statements
give us an even clearer insight into the seamy side of life in his day. He speaks of the growing disorders with pain and vexation ; the more so since he could not but see that they were being fomented by his doctrine of justification by faith alone. "This preaching,"; he says, "ought by rights to be accepted and listened to with great joy, and everyone ought to improve himself thereby and become more pious. But, unfortunately, the reverse is now the case and the longer it endures the worse the world becomes ; this is [the work of] the devil himself, for now we see the people becoming more infamous, more avaricious, more unmerciful, more unchaste and in every way worse than they were under Popery."


Luther's own words.
Luther was fine with the sacrament of confession until he found out that many Catholic priests were telling their penitents in the confessional not to read Luther's writings. He then changed his theological position on the sacrament of penance and decided it was an institution created by man and was no longer needed.
Wait a second. You just said;

Post #42
Luther was a base, sensuous, duplicitous, and totally debauched individual, who would change his new doctrines on a whim

Rejecting a doctrine isn't 'changing' a doctrine. And i thought the confessional was super secret? Here is your ungodly priests spilling the beans on Luther in the confessional. Wow, i didn't know that one i'll have to look into that more. I'm not catholic, nor will i ever be but even i think thats despicable

Regarding debauchery;

Here is Scaff on Alex the 6th;
54. Pope Alexander VI - Borgia. 1492-1503.

The character and career of Alexander VI. afford an argument against the theory of the divine institution and vicarial prerogatives of the papacy which the doubtful exegesis of our Lord's words to Peter ought not to be allowed to counteract. If we leave out all the wicked popes of the 9 th and 10 th centuries, forget for a moment the cases of Honorius and other popes charged with heresy, and put aside the offending popes of the Renaissance period and all the bulls which sin against common reason, such as Innocent VIII.'s bull against witchcraft, Alexander is enough to forbid that theory. Could God commit his Church for 12 years to such a monster?

(from Schaff's History of the Church, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 1999, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Even if Luther said that the fact remains your popes are allegedly vicars of Christ and we are just divided, infighting, lost wandering souls right? Thats wrong but from your perspective its true. Your popes are not from God, elected by God or a vicar of God in any sense. They need salvation.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Yeah, I have it too. It's available online. The volumes are used in a (real) Catholic seminary to teach the heresies of Protestantism, Luther and the other "reformers."

What "heresies"? That we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord and NOT by works? If so, then I guess St. Paul was a heretic, too!
Luther was fine with the sacrament of confession until he found out that many Catholic priests were telling their penitents in the confessional not to read Luther's writings. He then changed his theological position on the sacrament of penance and decided it was an institution created by man and was no longer needed.

I think the Latin Bibles at that time substituted "do penance" for "repent." Luther found that out by checking things with the Greek concordance book he had, a book of great worth to him. WE do not consider doing "penance" a sacrament, nor do we consider confessing to a priest to be a sacrament. A sacrament is something Jesus Christ Himself commanded, linked to a physical element, with a promise attached--the forgiveness of sins. Only two meet those criteria--Holy Communion and Baptism. Confessing sins privately to a minister is fine and dandy--but it isn't a sacrament. NOR is "doing penance." Like saying so many "hail Mary"s, or so many "Our Father"s....
Luther openly acknowledged the rapid decline in morals that his new religion was bringing about: "Luther quite candidly admitted the distressing state of things described above without in the least glossing it over, which indeed he could not well have done ; in fact, his own statements
give us an even clearer insight into the seamy side of life in his day. He speaks of the growing disorders with pain and vexation ; the more so since he could not but see that they were being fomented by his doctrine of justification by faith alone. "This preaching,"; he says, "ought by rights to be accepted and listened to with great joy, and everyone ought to improve himself thereby and become more pious. But, unfortunately, the reverse is now the case and the longer it endures the worse the world becomes ; this is [the work of] the devil himself, for now we see the people becoming more infamous, more avaricious, more unmerciful, more unchaste and in every way worse than they were under Popery."

In other words ,people were using the excuse that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works as an excuse to sin. That is nothing new--people did that in Paul's day, too.

Romans 6:

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ​

6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

But then, the RCC back then wasn't any better, was it? Some convents were virtual brothels and there were brothels in Rome that catered to churchmen. And there is still the terrible problem of pedophile priests in your church that has been going on for many decades, if not centuries. So, clearly sticking with the RCC and its doctrines didn't prevent such sins in your church! But DO note it is Luther himself who is deploring the sinning going on--not participating in it.
Luther's own words.
So? But he himself was not participating in such sins. But deploring them. Did YOUR church deplore the sins of Alex VI? Leo X? John XII? And other bad popes? Why did it take so long for your church to deal with pedophile priests? That were UNDER your church's jurisdiction? Were they any better for being members of your church, under the Pope's jurisdiction?

People in glass houses....
 
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Bonnie

Super Member
Wait a second. You just said;

Post #42


Rejecting a doctrine isn't 'changing' a doctrine. And i thought the confessional was super secret? Here is your ungodly priests spilling the beans on Luther in the confessional. Wow, i didn't know that one i'll have to look into that more. I'm not catholic, nor will i ever be but even i think thats despicable
you
Regarding debauchery;

Here is Scaff on Alex the 6th;


Even if Luther said that the fact remains your popes are allegedly vicars of Christ and we are just divided, infighting, lost wandering souls right? Thats wrong but from your perspective its true. Your popes are not from God, elected by God or a vicar of God in any sense. They need salvation.
Luther drove his confessors crazy--he would spend hours with them, confessing his sins, then leave, remember another sin, then head back to the confessional...he thought of God as this divine judge, ready to lower the boom on him for the slightest sin....I think one of his confessors told him, "God doesn't hate you--but you hate God!" And that was probably true.

But thanks be to God, he studied the book of Romans and it set him free--not free to sin, but free to serve His Savior from the heart, and not just outwardly. Free from worrying about whether or not he was "good enough" or had "done enough"--because his studies of the epistles showed him that JESUS was 'good enough" and had "done enough" for his salvation!

But he married his Katie--whom he thought the world of--had 6 kids by her, and raised 11 others made orphans, most by the plague. Was he perfect? Hardly. But neither was he depraved, or sensuous, or debauched. Those things DO describe some of Rome's Popes, however.
 
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Nondenom40

Super Member
What "heresies"? That we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord and NOT by works? If so, then I guess St. Paul was a heretic, too!


I think the Latin Bibles at that time substituted "do penance" for "repent." Luther found that out by checking things with the Greek concordance book he had, a book of great worth to him. WE do not consider doing "penance" a sacrament, nor do we consider confessing to a priest to be a sacrament. A sacrament is something Jesus Christ Himself commanded, linked to a physical element, with a promise attached--the forgiveness of sins. Only two meet those criteria--Holy Communion and Baptism. Confessing sins privately to a minister is fine and dandy--but it isn't a sacrament. NOR is "doing penance." Like saying so many "hail Mary"s, or so many "Our Father"s....


In other words ,people were using the excuse that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works as an excuse to sin. That is nothing new--people did that in Paul's day, too.



But then, the RCC back then wasn't any better, was it? Some convents were virtual brothels and there were brothels in Rome that catered to churchmen. And there is still the terrible problem of pedophile priests in your church that has been going on for many decades, if not centuries. So, clearly sticking with the RCC and its doctrines didn't prevent such sins in your church! But DO note it is Luther himself who is deploring the sinning going on--not participating in it.

So? But he himself was not participating in such sins. But deploring them. Did YOUR church deplore the sins of Alex VI? Leo X? And other bad popes? Why did it take so long for your church to deal with pedophile priests? That were UNDER your church's jurisdiction? Were they any better for it?

People in glass houses....
Thats a good point about penance in the latin. Jerome for all the good he did and as smart as he was did goof on occasion. He did translate repent to penance in the vulgate. What i'm not sure of is did they define penance as rome does today, expiate? But youre right. As soon as Luther picked up a greek text that difference would have hit him right in the face and the light bulb goes off.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Wait a second. You just said;

Post #42


Rejecting a doctrine isn't 'changing' a doctrine. And i thought the confessional was super secret? Here is your ungodly priests spilling the beans on Luther in the confessional. Wow, i didn't know that one i'll have to look into that more. I'm not catholic, nor will i ever be but even i think thats despicable

Regarding debauchery;

Here is Scaff on Alex the 6th;


Even if Luther said that the fact remains your popes are allegedly vicars of Christ and we are just divided, infighting, lost wandering souls right? Thats wrong but from your perspective its true. Your popes are not from God, elected by God or a vicar of God in any sense. They need salvation.
Hi--I did a little research and there were other popes worse than Alex VI, bad though he was. Like, Pope John XII. Alex VII did do some good things. But the bad stuff he did overshadowed the good.
 

Bonnie

Super Member
Thats a good point about penance in the latin. Jerome for all the good he did and as smart as he was did goof on occasion. He did translate repent to penance in the vulgate. What i'm not sure of is did they define penance as rome does today, expiate? But youre right. As soon as Luther picked up a greek text that difference would have hit him right in the face and the light bulb goes off.
Or, since this was the 16th century, it would have been like a lit torch flaring up! :p


Doing penance and repenting mean two entirely different things. Modern Catholic bibles do have "repent" though--I checked years ago.
 
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Nondenom40

Super Member
Or, since this was the 16th century, it would have been like a lit torch going flaring up! :p


Doing penance and repenting mean two entirely different things. Modern Catholic bibles do have "repent" though--I checked years ago.
Not the D/R.

Acts 2:38

38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
Douay-Rheims

They inserted penance 50 times.
 

Nondenom40

Super Member
Hi--I did a little research and there were other popes worse than Alex VI, bad though he was. Like, Pope John XII. Alex VII did do some good things. But the bad stuff he did overshadowed the good.
Hard to believe anyone was worse than Alex the 6th but it doesn't surprise me one bit. Back then, and maybe even today if youre the sovereign you can get away with pretty much anything.
 
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