The Theories of Two saints…

[brotherofJared]

So "Mormon hermeneutics"

There's no such thing as an official Mormon hermeneutic. We have the scriptures and the words of apostles and prophets. There's no school that provides an interpretation or an exegesis. It is open to anyone to determine it on their own. We don't need mind control as our critics appear to need to.

"non-Mormon hermeneutics" is false?!

Not all. Truth is truth no matter what the source is. Scholars in the field of theology would need to study non-Mormon hermeneutics, but there's no reason for me to. It would be a waste of my time and I'd get a failing grade because I won't be brainwashed on this subject even for a grade.

Like your exegesis on 1 Cor 15 which I thought was pathetic. You intentionally avoid the obvious in order to make our point. That's what I call pretzeling. Twisting your ideas into the obvious message in order to make it fit your theology rather than making your theology fit the scriptures.

It is true that Paul is dividing, comparing and contrasting the heavenly with the earthly and though you effectively pointed out that binary context of the rest of 1 Cor 15, you intentionally ignored the non-binary contents of verse 41 and then erroneously made a 4th category of stars and other stars just so you could avoid the obvious connection with our doctrine... because Mormon's can't be right on A N Y T H I N G.

The fact is, from earth's perspective, there are three degrees of light. There is only one sun and there is only one moon and there are many stars and all the stars differ in their intensity of light. Then Paul, non-binarily states, So is it with the resurrection of the dead. 41 and 42 are the pivot point of this subject but because of brainwashed scholars, they have made the paragraph break at verse 42.

Verse 40, 41, and 42 belong together and a paragraph break should be at "What is sown is perishable..." in 42.

Does this transfer to other disciplines?

"Mormon math is true, but non-Mormon math is false"?
"Mormon science is true, but non-Mormon science is false"?

Could you be more absurd?

 

[Magdalena]

There's no such thing as an official Mormon hermeneutic. We have the scriptures and the words of apostles and prophets. There's no school that provides an interpretation or an exegesis. It is open to anyone to determine it on their own. We don't need mind control as our critics appear to need to.

No you don’t. You deny the words of your own “prophets“ whenever it suits your arguments.

 

[Richard7]

I read this and I believe this deserves a thread of it’s own…

BoJ….And you are on solid ground? I see otherwise, but moving forward.

Part of one of your theories goes something like this, in part…Every planet or world that is created (organized) will have two sets of Adam’s and Eves. One of these sets of Adam’s will be the father of spirits (God set 1), the other the father physical mankind (God set 2).

In regards to God set 1, he and his wive/s lived in a celestial world, and pre-existing spirits will be roaming about and will come to them and ask for help to obtain a mortal body. And once God set 1, decides to help out this eternally existing spirit, they will be begotten to this God set, via a purely symbolic new birth and covenant…in which they are referred to being a offspring, born, begotten. Then as a symbolic child, and not a literal child of God set 1, these spirits will be reared in the many mansions of God set 1, and taught the gospel…and this is called “being raised to maturity.” I can only assume that these spirits are not gender neutral, and are male and female by nature (Please verify?).

Also one of these roaming spirits, was actually the first spirit to ask for help to God set 1. He was Jehovah, the future God of the Old Testament and the Future messiah of this earth…I assume that at some point he would have also asked for a body based on your theory, and I also assume that is when he was begotten by Mary as the Christ. I have to keep assuming also, and that Lucifer was denied this help because when invited, along with Jehovah, to a council of God’s to determine the plan of salvation for mankind, his plan was rejected and he took off with one third of the roaming spirits…(Please verify, and correct any error in my assumption here? )

In the meanwhile God set 2, when chosen by God set one, had to come to this earth and eat of the fruit and die. This death was just a future physical death and not a spiritual death (Note: LDS theory demands a spiritual death here as the reason for the Atonement, which you denied). This God set 2 then proceeds to create physicals tabernacles so the symbolic children of God set 1 can enter into these physical bodies created by God set 2 and their literal procreated offsprings, which in your view is the continuation of seeds.

Aaron’s theories are more emotional and spiritual. They are based mostly on random Bible and the BoM versus without a full context…blending traditional Christian thought with general Mormon thought, yet stuck and struggling with how to get around teachings he just can’t cross the line to accept.

IMO Aaron is honestly trying to work through this and trying to understand it, while always keeping his testimony close to his heart. I see your approach, as a convert and member because of marriage, as having your own lines or boundaries set. In this specific case spirits being begotten by sex of a HF and HM. So you just start twisting everything, and try to navigate your way through the maze of teachings…taking bits and pieces of this and that as you go through this.

I understand I can be wrong in my opinion, by this is what I see. And, you can certainly clean up my understanding by stopping it the one line ad Homs, and deflections and give me your clear “plan of salvation” and understanding of all this. It is impossible to navigate through your posts in that there is so much deflection and back pedaling.

Give it a shot, give me three or four paragraphs of how this all works according to your understanding? Then we can build our conversation on a clear bench mark That we can refer to.

So glad you began by stating it was a theory.... I rather deal with facts and truth. One Faith, one Baptism... hmm ... wonder why that's in the Bible...

Ralf/Richard

 

[brotherofJared]

So glad you began by stating it was a theory.... I rather deal with facts and truth. One Faith, one Baptism... hmm ... wonder why that's in the Bible...

Ralf/Richard

It would be nice to discuss the simpler things, but sadly, our critics would have nothing to argue about.

 

[Richard7]

It would be nice to discuss the simpler things, but sadly, our critics would have nothing to argue about.

I have always wondered how they get around that.... One Faith, one baptism.... but they deflect by saying we don't have the right to question them and their doctrine... after all this is about us and not them... chuckle...

Ralf

 

[The Prophet]

I have always wondered how they get around that.... One Faith, one baptism.... but they deflect by saying we don't have the right to question them and their doctrine... after all this is about us and not them... chuckle...

Ralf

1. Discourses of Brigham Young, p.30
The Holy Ghost, we believe, is one of the characters that form the Trinity, or the Godhead.

1. Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p.61
Now I repeat-the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, he constitutes the third person in the Trinity, the Godhead

1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.312
In our Articles of Faith we declare our belief in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost-in other words, the Trinity. We accept the scriptural doctrine that they are separate and distinct personages. This is one distinguishing and, to some, disturbing doctrine of the Church.


1. James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, Vol.4, p.264
From these statements, and from many others that might be quoted, it is clear that Adam and Christ are two persons-not the same Person. It is erroneous doctrine to consider them one and the same person, for Jesus is the Christ, a member of the Trinity, the God-head, and to whom Adam, the father of the human family upon this earth, is amenable. Adam will have to account for his stewardship to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, whose blood atones for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam.
James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, Vol.6, p.236


1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.313
Surely this was not ventriloquism where Christ was speaking to and of himself. It was the Father introducing His Son. In this case, the members of the Holy Trinity manifested themselves, each in a different way, and each was distinct from the others. A similar event occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration when members of the Godhead were distinguished in the presence of Moses and Elias, and Peter, James, and John.

J. Reuben Clark Jr. Second Counselor to the LDS First Presidency speaking to diversified audience in the mid 1940s speaks of God in terms of the Trinity-God has revealed to us that he is the Father of all, and that he loves and cares forth righteous everywhere, and seeks ever to bring back the wayward to his ways. He has made known that Jesus is the Christ, the Only Begotten of the Father, the Redeemer of the World, the First Fruits of the Resurrection. He has shown to us that as Jesus died, lay in the tomb, and was resurrected, so shall it be with every son and daughter of God. He has manifested to us that he is a person, that Christ is another person, and that the Holy Ghost is a third person, and that these make the Trinity of the Godhead

Another explanation is found in Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose

Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason:


General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.

 

[Richard7]

1. Discourses of Brigham Young, p.30
The Holy Ghost, we believe, is one of the characters that form the Trinity, or the Godhead.

1. Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p.61
Now I repeat-the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, he constitutes the third person in the Trinity, the Godhead

1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.312
In our Articles of Faith we declare our belief in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost-in other words, the Trinity. We accept the scriptural doctrine that they are separate and distinct personages. This is one distinguishing and, to some, disturbing doctrine of the Church.


1. James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, Vol.4, p.264
From these statements, and from many others that might be quoted, it is clear that Adam and Christ are two persons-not the same Person. It is erroneous doctrine to consider them one and the same person, for Jesus is the Christ, a member of the Trinity, the God-head, and to whom Adam, the father of the human family upon this earth, is amenable. Adam will have to account for his stewardship to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, whose blood atones for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam.
James R. Clark, Messages of the First Presidency, Vol.6, p.236


1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.313
Surely this was not ventriloquism where Christ was speaking to and of himself. It was the Father introducing His Son. In this case, the members of the Holy Trinity manifested themselves, each in a different way, and each was distinct from the others. A similar event occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration when members of the Godhead were distinguished in the presence of Moses and Elias, and Peter, James, and John.

J. Reuben Clark Jr. Second Counselor to the LDS First Presidency speaking to diversified audience in the mid 1940s speaks of God in terms of the Trinity-God has revealed to us that he is the Father of all, and that he loves and cares forth righteous everywhere, and seeks ever to bring back the wayward to his ways. He has made known that Jesus is the Christ, the Only Begotten of the Father, the Redeemer of the World, the First Fruits of the Resurrection. He has shown to us that as Jesus died, lay in the tomb, and was resurrected, so shall it be with every son and daughter of God. He has manifested to us that he is a person, that Christ is another person, and that the Holy Ghost is a third person, and that these make the Trinity of the Godhead

Another explanation is found in Answers to Gospel Questions Vol. 3 pp 98-99 under Counsel given by President Charles W. Penrose

Now, some of our brethren have taken up quite a discussion as to the fulness of the everlasting gospel. We are told that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel, that those who like to get up a dispute, say that the Book of Mormon does not contain any reference to the work of salvation for the dead, and that there are many other things pertaining to the gospel that are not developed in that book, and yet we are told that the book contains "the fulness of the everlasting gospel." well what is the fulnesspel? You read carefully the revelation in regard to the three glories, section 76, in the Doctrine and Covanants, and you find there defined what the gospel is, There God the Eternal Father, and Jesus Christ, his son, and the Holy Ghost, are held up as the three persons in the Trinity-the one God the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, all three being one God. When people believe in that doctrine and obey the ordinances which are spoken of in the same list of principals, you get the fulness of the gospel for this reason:


General Conference Report, April 1922, pp 27-28.

Chuckle.... Trinity was a well know label back in JS days and its as you see put along side of Godhead.... the history of many of those talks in those days actually defined what the Trinity or Godhead meant as doctrine.... you should get more yourself more versed in what was taught and not what label was being used.... do the research and prove me wrong... research the doctrine taught back then, it hasn't changed in the least.
God, The Son and the Holy Ghost all separate and never one God except in one doctrine, one heart and one mind...nice try.

 

[The Prophet]

Chuckle.... Trinity was a well know label back in JS days and its as you see put along side of Godhead.... the history of many of those talks in those days actually defined what the Trinity or Godhead meant as doctrine.... you should get more yourself more versed in what was taught and not what label was being used.... do the research and prove me wrong... research the doctrine taught back then, it hasn't changed in the least.
God, The Son and the Holy Ghost all separate and never one God except in one doctrine, one heart and one mind...nice try.

2 Nephi 31:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.



Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.





Mormon 7:

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.



The Testimony of Three Witnesses

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris



1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.



Doctrine and Covenants 20 :

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.



1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. Joseph Smith translation



Moses 1:6

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

 

[Richard7]

2 Nephi 31:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.


There is only one “true and living God”—who shares none of his godhood with the hosts of false gods invented by man. By false gods we would assume that the so called doctrine of 3 personages and one God would fit that description and criteria very nicely... false gods made evident by false teacher of the Bible.

 

[brotherofJared]

2 Nephi 31:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.



Alma 11:

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.





Mormon 7:

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.



The Testimony of Three Witnesses

And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery

David Whitmer

Martin Harris



1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.



Doctrine and Covenants 20 :

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.



1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. Joseph Smith translation



Moses 1:6

6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

We don't go by your interpretation of the scriptures. Jesus define the oneness of the godhead perfectly in the Bible where he prayed that his disciples would be one as he and his father are one. Clearly the intent wasn't physical. Ralf nailed it.

 

[The Prophet]

We don't go by your interpretation of the scriptures. Jesus define the oneness of the godhead perfectly in the Bible where he prayed that his disciples would be one as he and his father are one. Clearly the intent wasn't physical. Ralf nailed it.

never interpreted any verses but just posted them ​

 

[Richard7]

never interpreted any verses but just posted them ​

Of course you did... or you listened to another preacher or person who made that interpretation of what we preach. Why did you highlight it if it wasn't for the reason you believe it and interpret it to mean something else than the reality that this doctrine is explained over and over and yet you guys keep posting the same scripture as if it agrees with your take on doctrine... hmm.... we have stated over and over it refers to the Godhead, Christ and God were of like mind and sameness in the plan of salvation...

 

[brotherofJared]

Of course you did... or you listened to another preacher or person who made that interpretation of what we preach. Why did you highlight it if it wasn't for the reason you believe it and interpret it to mean something else than the reality that this doctrine is explained over and over and yet you guys keep posting the same scripture as if it agrees with your take on doctrine... hmm.... we have stated over and over it refers to the Godhead, Christ and God were of like mind and sameness in the plan of salvation...

Again, common sense. How can Jesus have been his own father? Well, that's a mystery. How could the same being be three beings at the baptism of Christ? Another mystery.

It seems to me to be logical that a father can never be his own son. It makes sense that all beings who have sons are actually separate beings from there sons. Why all they mystery? The Bible is easy to understand without this hocus pocus imaginary God our critics have conjured up. With this "mysterious" God they have imagined, they have to explain that the Bible doesn't have to make sense, just believe what we tell u. 🙄

IMO, it is far easier to understand how three beings can be one and impossible to grasp how one being presents himself at three and further, why would he need to do that? Why the charades?

 

[Theo1689]

Again, common sense. How can Jesus have been his own father?

Who teaches that "Jesus [was] his own father"?
Hint: Trinitarians do NOT teach that.

And I guess it's time again for our regular reminder that "The Trinity", NOT being a Mormon belief, is OFF-TOPIC for this forum?

You see, Lurkers, Mormons are incapable of defending their false teachings, and so what they do is derail discussion and try to put the critics on the defensive by attacking OUR beliefs (which are OFF-TOPIC) to try to get us distracted from discussing THEIR beliefs.

If they want to try to attack the Trinity (which they should really learn what it teaches, before assuming it's wrong), there is an appropriate "Trinity" forum to do so. They are perfectly welcome to attack the Trinity there. But they won't, because they don't care about the Trinity, they only care about derailing discussion AWAY from Mormonism, and going to the Trinity forum won't accomplish that goal.

Well, that's a mystery. How could the same being be three beings at the baptism of Christ? Another mystery.

Again, Trinitarians do NOT believe that "the same being be three beings".
And again, the Trinity is OFF-TOPIC here in the "Mormonism" forum.

It seems to me to be logical that a father can never be his own son.

Yeah, it seems logical to the rest of the world as well.
Why do you bring up something so completely irrelevant?



I think it's pretty good proof that Mormonism is bankrupt and false, when Mormons:
- can't defend it;
- sabotage discussion by attacking the off-topic beliefs of the critics instead, and
- MISERPRESENTING what the critics believe in the first place.

If Mormonism were actually true, why would any Mormon have to stoop to that level?

 

[Richard7]

Who teaches that "Jesus [was] his own father"?
Hint: Trinitarians do NOT teach that.

And I guess it's time again for our regular reminder that "The Trinity", NOT being a Mormon belief, is OFF-TOPIC for this forum?

You see, Lurkers, Mormons are incapable of defending their false teachings, and so what they do is derail discussion and try to put the critics on the defensive by attacking OUR beliefs (which are OFF-TOPIC) to try to get us distracted from discussing THEIR beliefs.

If they want to try to attack the Trinity (which they should really learn what it teaches, before assuming it's wrong), there is an appropriate "Trinity" forum to do so. They are perfectly welcome to attack the Trinity there. But they won't, because they don't care about the Trinity, they only care about derailing discussion AWAY from Mormonism, and going to the Trinity forum won't accomplish that goal.



Again, Trinitarians do NOT believe that "the same being be three beings".
And again, the Trinity is OFF-TOPIC here in the "Mormonism" forum.



Yeah, it seems logical to the rest of the world as well.
Why do you bring up something so completely irrelevant?



I think it's pretty good proof that Mormonism is bankrupt and false, when Mormons:
- can't defend it;
- sabotage discussion by attacking the off-topic beliefs of the critics instead, and
- MISERPRESENTING what the critics believe in the first place.

If Mormonism were actually true, why would any Mormon have to stoop to that level?

Not really, we just point out the hypocrisy of those who preach a different doctrine and yet refuse to debate it... hmm

 

[Theo1689]

Not really, we just point out the hypocrisy of those who preach a different doctrine and yet refuse to debate it... hmm

We are perfectly willing to debate it.
It's just that this is the MORMONISM forum.

If you want to debate the Trinity, you may do so in the TRINITY forum.
But then you would fail to derail threads about Mormonism, wouldn't you?

 

[Richard7]

We are perfectly willing to debate it.
It's just that this is the MORMONISM forum.

If you want to debate the Trinity, you may do so in the TRINITY forum.
But then you would fail to derail threads about Mormonism, wouldn't you?

Nothing like handicapping a especially great question with silly restrictions... and yet you know and I know that your'e not going to get kicked off the forum for debating it.... its your cover screen and you practice it very well...and I won't be surprised if you report me... hmm

 

[Theo1689]

Nothing like handicapping a especially great question with silly restrictions... and yet you know and I know that your'e not going to get kicked off the forum for debating it....

I'm a Christian, which means I obey authority.
Even if I don't get penalized for breaking the rules (if that's your speculation).

I'm sorry that you're not a Christian, and that you don't like to obey the rules.

 

[Richard7]

I'm a Christian, which means I obey authority.
Even if I don't get penalized for breaking the rules (if that's your speculation).

I'm sorry that you're not a Christian, and that you don't like to obey the rules.

Sticks and stones will break my bones, yada, yada and yada.... yawn, and more crickets.

 

[Theo1689]

Sticks and stones will break my bones, yada, yada and yada.... yawn, and more crickets.

If you really wanted to know the answers, you would ask in the APPROPRIATE forum.
But you won't, because you're not a Christian, and moving to the proper forum wouldn't succeed in your derailing discussion away from Mormonism.