The Thirteen Principles of Jewish Faith

[davbeh2010]

According to - https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332555/jewish/Maimonides-13-Principles-of-Faith.htm

1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.

2. The belief in G‑d's absolute and unparalleled unity.

3. The belief in G‑d's non-corporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.

4. The belief in G‑d's eternity.

5. The imperative to worship G‑d exclusively and no foreign false gods.

6. The belief that G‑d communicates with man through prophecy.

7. The belief in the primacy of the prophecy of Moses our teacher.

8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.

9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.

10. The belief in G‑d's omniscience and providence.

11. The belief in divine reward and retribution.

12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.

13. The belief in the resurrection of the dead.


Do Orthodox Jews really place their faith, in faith principles #6, and #13 above? (i.e. NKJV - Amos 8:7-10; Psalm 22:2; Job 9:7) (i.e. John 11:38-44)

Were the Sadducees really Jewish? (i.e. Had no faith in the resurrection of the dead) If so, why would faith principle #13 apply to all Jews?


In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[Open Heart]

Do Orthodox Jews really place their faith, in faith principles #6, and #13 above? (i.e. NKJV - Amos 8:7-10; Psalm 22:2; Job 9:7) (i.e. John 11:38-44)

I don't understand the question. All thirteen principles are items of faith.

Were the Sadducees really Jewish? (i.e. Had no faith in the resurrection of the dead) If so, why would faith principle #13 apply to all Jews?

The Sadducees predated the 13 principles of faith. Belief in the resurrection came through the Pharisees, who formed the basis for rabbinical Judaism.

The 13 principals are basically medieval thinking. They defined Judaism as it was understood during those years. It cannot be used to describe Judaism in ages before, or in the ages since. For example, there are religious Jews today that do not believe in an afterlife.

Being a Jew is being a part of a People. Some Jews are religious, and some aren't. Some Jews are even atheists. So yes, the Sadducees were certainly Jews. I think the question you were trying to answer is whether Sadducaism is Judaism. At the time the Sadducees existed, things weren't nailed down as much as they are today. Back then, yes, they would have been considered a sect of Judaism. But if some Jew existed today who had the views of the Sadducees, no it wouldn't be Judaism, if for no other reason than the Sadducees rejected Oral Torah, which is necessary for Judaismm.

 

[davbeh2010]

I don't understand the question. All thirteen principles are items of faith.

The Sadducees predated the 13 principles of faith. Belief in the resurrection came through the Pharisees, who formed the basis for rabbinical Judaism.

The 13 principals are basically medieval thinking. They defined Judaism as it was understood during those years. It cannot be used to describe Judaism in ages before, or in the ages since. For example, there are religious Jews today that do not believe in an afterlife.

Being a Jew is being a part of a People. Some Jews are religious, and some aren't. Some Jews are even atheists. So yes, the Sadducees were certainly Jews. I think the question you were trying to answer is whether Sadducaism is Judaism. At the time the Sadducees existed, things weren't nailed down as much as they are today. Back then, yes, they would have been considered a sect of Judaism. But if some Jew existed today who had the views of the Sadducees, no it wouldn't be Judaism, if for no other reason than the Sadducees rejected Oral Torah, which is necessary for Judaismm.

Some Jews are believers in Jesus, the Messiah, as well. Part of the same People.

Clarification:

Do Orthodox Jews really place their faith, in faith principles #6, and #13 above? (i.e. NKJV - Amos 8:7-10; Psalm 22:2; Job 9:7) (i.e. John 11:38-44)

Let me ask you this then, when do Orthodox Jews believe that God last communicated with man through prophecy?

I believe that God has shown me that these Scriptures were fulfilled on the day that Jesus was crucified. (i.e. NKJV - Amos 8:7-10; Psalm 22:2; Job 9:7)


Were the Sadducees really Jewish? (i.e. Had no faith in the resurrection of the dead) If so, why would faith principle #13 apply to all Jews?

So the Sadducees were certainly Jews, I agree. Since the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead, then it's also reasonable to believe that the Sadducees didn't believe in the Writings of Daniel during their religious practice. (i.e. Daniel 12:2) Do you agree?


In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[Open Heart]

Some Jews are believers in Jesus, the Messiah, as well. Part of the same People.

And some Jews are atheists. Same people. All it really shows is that we are not monolithic.

Clarification:

Do Orthodox Jews really place their faith, in faith principles #6, and #13 above? (i.e. NKJV - Amos 8:7-10; Psalm 22:2; Job 9:7) (i.e. John 11:38-44)

Again, I don't understand the question. ALLLLL 13 priniciples are statements of faith. They are how Judaism was understood in the Middle Ages. Today, some Jews accept them, and others don't. I'm not sure why your focus is on Orthodox Jews. There are more kinds of Judaism than just Orthodoxy.

Let me ask you this then, when do Orthodox Jews believe that God last communicated with man through prophecy?

The last prophet was Malachi. That closed the age of prophecy.

Were the Sadducees really Jewish? (i.e. Had no faith in the resurrection of the dead) If so, why would faith principle #13 apply to all Jews?

I already answered this. You can be atheist and still be a Jew. The question is not whether they were Jews, but whether their ideology was Judaism. Back then, things were not quite so defined, so yes, it was a Jewish sect. However, with the way Judaism has evolved today, similar beliefs today would not be considered Judaism -- not because of their denial of the afterlife, but because they reject Oral Torah.

So the Sadducees were certainly Jews, I agree. Since the Sadducees didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead, then it's also reasonable to believe that the Sadducees didn't believe in the Writings of Daniel during their religious practice. (i.e. Daniel 12:2) Do you agree?

The Sadducees rejected the writings of the Prophets. Daniel is not even considered a prophet -- the book is part of the Writings, which were not included in canon until towards the end of the first century.

 

[davbeh2010]

The last prophet was Malachi. That closed the age of prophecy.

Jewish man established an arbitrary "end of prophecy", not God. If this arbitrary "end of prophecy" were true, then the Messiah that Judaism expects would not qualify as a prophet.

The Sadducees rejected the writings of the Prophets. Daniel is not even considered a prophet -- the book is part of the Writings, which were not included in canon until towards the end of the first century.

I know that according to Judaism, that Daniel is not even considered a prophet. That's why I specifically wrote, "the Writings of Daniel".
However, I will believe what the prophet Jesus Christ says about Daniel. Daniel was a prophet. (i.e. Mark 13:14)


In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[davbeh2010]

According to - https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/332555/jewish/Maimonides-13-Principles-of-Faith.htm

1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.

2. The belief in G‑d's absolute and unparalleled unity.

3. The belief in G‑d's non-corporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.

4. The belief in G‑d's eternity.

5. The imperative to worship G‑d exclusively and no foreign false gods.

6. The belief that G‑d communicates with man through prophecy.

7. The belief in the primacy of the prophecy of Moses our teacher.

8. The belief in the divine origin of the Torah.

9. The belief in the immutability of the Torah.

10. The belief in G‑d's omniscience and providence.

11. The belief in divine reward and retribution.

12. The belief in the arrival of the Messiah and the messianic era.

13. The belief in the resurrection of the dead.

Principle #6 specifically states, "communicates", it does not state "communicated".

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[Jewjitzu]

Principle #6 specifically states, "communicates", it does not state "communicated".

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

Chabad has a generalization for #6.

The Hebrew actually says, I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

ו] אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה, שֶׁכָּל דִּבְרֵי נְבִיאִים אֱמֶת.

With regards to #13, there's a difference of opinion whether the resurrection is physical or spiritual.

 

[davbeh2010]

Chabad has a generalization for #6.

The Hebrew actually says, I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

ו] אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה, שֶׁכָּל דִּבְרֵי נְבִיאִים אֱמֶת.

With regards to #13, there's a difference of opinion whether the resurrection is physical or spiritual.

Principle #6 specifically states in Hebrew, "are true", and does not state "were true".

Did God stop sending prophets, or did Jewish man decide that no more prophets were necessary for their faith after the prophet Malachi? (i.e. Jewish man's will be done "on earth", or God's will be done "on earth"?)


In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[davbeh2010]

With regards to #13, there's a difference of opinion whether the resurrection is physical or spiritual.

(Genesis 18:14) (Jeremiah 32:27) (John 11:38-44)

Have faith.

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[Jewjitzu]

Principle #6 specifically states in Hebrew, "are true", and does not state "were true".

Did I say otherwise? The words in Tanakh are true. Any prophet that changes the law and teaches likewise is false.

Did God stop sending prophets, or did Jewish man decide that no more prophets were necessary for their faith after the prophet Malachi? (i.e. Jewish man's will be done "on earth", or God's will be done "on earth"?)

Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.

Certainly the gifts purported in the NT were false.

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

In the true God's service.

 

[Jewjitzu]

(Genesis 18:14) (Jeremiah 32:27) (John 11:38-44)

Have faith.

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

Faith isn't the question.

 

[davbeh2010]

Did I say otherwise? The words in Tanakh are true. Any prophet that changes the law and teaches likewise is false.

Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.

Certainly the gifts purported in the NT were false.

In the true God's service.

Jewjitzu did not answer the question in context.

Did God stop sending prophets,

or,

did Jewish man decide that no more prophets were necessary for their faith after the prophet Malachi? (i.e. Jewish man's will be done "on earth", or God's will be done "on earth"?)


In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[Jewjitzu]

Jewjitzu did not answer the question in context.

Did God stop sending prophets,

or,

did Jewish man decide that no more prophets were necessary for their faith after the prophet Malachi? (i.e. Jewish man's will be done "on earth", or God's will be done "on earth"?)

You didn't read my words in context.

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

In the true God's service.

 

[davbeh2010]

You didn't read my words in context.

In the true God's service.

According to Open Heart's Jewish faith, "The last prophet was Malachi. That closed the age of prophecy."

Do all Orthodox Jews agree with this statement? If so, where in the Tanakh did God state this? (i.e. Was it God's will that the age of prophecy close after His communication with the prophet Malachi?)


In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[Jewjitzu]

According to Open Heart's Jewish faith, "The last prophet was Malachi. That closed the age of prophecy."

Do all Orthodox Jews agree with this statement? If so, where in the Tanakh did God state this? (i.e. Was it God's will that the age of prophecy close after His communication with the prophet Malachi?)

The Sanhedrin is required to confirm someone is a prophet today. That can't be done.

That's not to say someone might not have insight, but that doesn't make them a prophet, like Daniel.

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

In the true God's service.

 

[davbeh2010]

The Sanhedrin is required to confirm someone is a prophet today. That can't be done.

That's not to say someone might not have insight, but that doesn't make them a prophet, like Daniel.


In the true God's service.

Where in the Tanakh did God state this? (i.e. Was it God's will that the age of prophecy close after His communication with the prophet Malachi?)

If one doesn't know what God's will is in this matter, then why chase after it? (i.e. chasing after a false revelation of God's will "on earth" regarding communication with prophets)

There is only one God, Jewjitzu! This one God can, and will, communicate with His Creation anywhere, and anytime that He chooses. Stop putting God "on hold" with one's man made religious practices.


In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[Jewjitzu]

Where in the Tanakh did God state this? (i.e. Was it God's will that the age of prophecy close after His communication with the prophet Malachi?)

We're told in Deut 17:2-7 the signs of idolators, those who lead astray to worship false gods our fathers didn't know. Then in Deut 17:8-13, we're told the judges have the right to pronounce judgements and verdicts on questions of law, one of those includes who's a prophet.

So, the Sanhedrin renders verdicts on whose a true prophet. That was commanded by God.

If one doesn't know what God's will is in this matter, then why chase after it? (i.e. chasing after a false revelation of God's will "on earth" regarding communication with prophets)

See above. God's will has been captured in the Tanakh.

There is only one God, Jewjitzu! This one God can, and will, communicate with His Creation anywhere, and anytime that He chooses. Stop putting God "on hold" with one's man made religious practices.

See above.

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

In the true God's service.

 

[davbeh2010]

We're told in Deut 17:2-7 the signs of idolators, those who lead astray to worship false gods our fathers didn't know. Then in Deut 17:8-13, we're told the judges have the right to pronounce judgements and verdicts on questions of law, one of those includes who's a prophet.

So, the Sanhedrin renders verdicts on whose a true prophet. That was commanded by God.

See above. God's will has been captured in the Tanakh.

See above.

In the true God's service.

According to Open Heart's Jewish faith, "The last prophet was Malachi. That closed the age of prophecy."

So, in other words, Open Heart's statement is false, and misleading.


In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

 

[Jewjitzu]

According to Open Heart's Jewish faith, "The last prophet was Malachi. That closed the age of prophecy."

So, in other words, Open Heart's statement is false, and misleading.

I don't see any other reported prophets in Tanakh. Do you?

You have to prove intent for someone to be misleading. I don't have a problem with OpenHeart's words.

The words of Tanakh are certainly words of prophecy and exhortation that we have for today without a need for the NT.

In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world

In the true God's service.

 

[davbeh2010]

I don't see any other reported prophets in Tanakh. Do you?

I don't see God stating in the Tanakh that the age of prophesy is closed. Until the one God of all Creation states that the age of prophesy is closed, I will never believe it to be true, even if there are two opinions stating to the contrary. God is perfectly capable of communicating to His children of any changes regarding the role of prophets, if He so desires.

You have to prove intent for someone to be misleading. I don't have a problem with OpenHeart's words.

Open Heart's words regarding the age of prophesy being closed, are not true.

Principle #6 specifically states in Hebrew, "are true", and does not state "were true".

(i.e. I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true)

The words of Tanakh are certainly words of prophecy and exhortation that we have for today without a need for the NT.

The NT was not in force until after the death of Jesus. Therefore, I will believe in the Jewish witnesses during the life of Jesus, that Jesus was a true prophet, and the Messiah.

Luke 24:19 Greek Text Analysis

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John 11:27 Greek Text Analysis

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In Messiah’s (Christ’s) service,
David Behrens
Soli Deo Gloria!
Bringing Christian harmony to all the world