The Trinitarian Delusion

Isaiah saw Yahweh !!!

Isaiah 6:5... Then I said, “Woe is me, for I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, Yahweh of hosts.”

Do you stand with the trin’s who claim Isaiah saw A MEMBER OF Yahweh?

The Father was never seen. Your modalist god must be false.
 
Isaiah saw Yahweh !!!

Isaiah 6:5... Then I said, “Woe is me, for I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, Yahweh of hosts.”

Do you stand with the trin’s who claim Isaiah saw A MEMBER OF Yahweh?
Isaiah saw The Son, one of the members of The Trinity.
 
Which God???
Yes which God, you have three, God the father who is not God the son or God the HS, You have God the son who is not God the father or God the HS and you have God the HS who is not God the father or God the son. Which one of them is your God.
Final question is incomprehensible.
More strawmen.
It is a simple question, Why do you argue that Jesus is God then say he is a person not a God?
 
Yes which God, you have three, God the father who is not God the son or God the HS, You have God the son who is not God the father or God the HS and you have God the HS who is not God the father or God the son. Which one of them is your God.

It is a simple question, Why do you argue that Jesus is God then say he is a person not a God?
Indeed, simple strawman questions.
 
Are you going to answer my question: What part of your thinking requires you to jump from "the Father is, as to his nature, the only God that exists." to they "there are three only Gods that exist."?
Jesus isn't talking about "nature" at John 17:3.

Really? Jesus isn't talking about what the Father is? God is just a title that doesn't imply anything about the nature of the one with the title? Dude, you're just trying to excuse the fact that Jesus is talking about the Father's ontological nature in John 17:3 to pretend our position isn't viable.

FYI, you can't say
"only true" and not be talking about nature. How can some one be the only if one isn't referencing natures? How can one assess truth, or proclaim truth, if nature isn't being considered? Your statement is just silly.

That's an insurmountable problem for you since it is the only way you can define the word "God" to attempt to make Jesus' words work for you
This is the part where you confuse the conversation again.

The sad thing is that it isn't a problem at all. I don't artificially restrict what Scripture is saying like you just did above, and surprise, surprise, your problem disappears.

God Bless
 
I'm asking questions, not making an argument here.
Ok I see two questions...
(1)Jesus' righteousness doesn't save us in your book?....Answer...We are saved by grace....
(2)Our sins are not imputed to Christ and Christ's righteousness isn't imputed to us?...Answer... Our sins are forgiven when this happens we become righteous before God.

Why are you responding to my discussion with Yahweh will increase? I'm just going to ignore this post.

God Bless
 
I'm asking questions, not making an argument here.
Yes asking questions with the deceitful intentions of twisting what I say to fit your desire, for what I stated from scriptures very clearly supports what I believe and trust in, that Jesus became sin and just how God sees me, that I might become the righteousness of God, just like God sees Christ by my being in him through repentance anf faith.

Paranoid.

True, but it doesn't say it so the reason you gave to justify Jesus is the righteousness of God in 2 Peter 1:1 is fallacious.
No it isn't, becasue to start with that has nothing to do with the fact that in 2 Peter 1:1 he is not giving Jesus the Title of "our God and Savior" but rather the title of "the righteousness of our God and Savior" and for the fact that God's righteousness was manifest in Jesus Christ.

Claiming your conclusion as support for the justification of that conclusion is circular. You're are giving reasons why you think Jesus is the righteousness of God in 2 Peter 1:1 as opposed to "our God and Savor". And, your theology doesn't count. Biblical evidence please.

Just like Paul also said, "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself" and just like Jesus himself said in John 14:10 "the words that I speak, I speak not from myself, it is the Father within me, he is doing the works" and I know you like to argue with this but it very clearly says that God was in Christ manifesting himself through him.
Therefore that would also include God's righteousness and almost almost every other attribute of God likewise.

You are literally grasping at straws here. God being in Christ manifesting himself through him doesn't make Jesus "the righteousness of our God and Savior."

This sounds like you're desperately trying to win the argument before any serious consideration of the verses in question. It's all off topic; so, I'll move on.
I don't need to try to win anything, for to begin with this is not a game to me, but maybe it is with you and that is why you stated this huh?
No it really isn't because you are are demanding from me what you can't deliver yourself and that is explicit proof that God is a trinity given by any true inspired by God writer of scripture and which is quite hypocritical also.
Furthermore, you are the one that went off topic in your irrelevent argument that it doesn't say that Jesus was made the righteousness of God when that has nothing to do with my point that 2 Peter 1:1 is calling Jesus "the righteousness of our God and Savior" and not "our God and Savior" like you believe.
It doesn't matter one way or another to my point.

My answering your argument for why Jesus is the righteousness of God in 2 Peter 1:1 is not off topic.

In reality, there are many Trinitarians who say all the works Jesus did were not coming from himself as God, but the Spirit working through him as an example for us. Notice, I've never said anything like "the works Jesus did were coming from himself as God". Maybe, you shouldn't make assumptions about why we say what we say.
Yet you are arguing that it in order for him to have the title "the righteousness of our God and Savior" he would have to be "our God and Savior" and which means then that his works of righteousness was his own and don't deny it because it is clear that this is what you are doing by arguing it.

I am not arguing that at all. You're the one saying Jesus is the righteousness; I'm not. I am simply recognizing that "Jesus Christ" is a genitive of apposition to the phrase "our God and Savor" in the Greek of 2 Peter 1:1. In this discussion, I'm simply interested in how you rationalize your position.

So, I'm wrong and blind, and the only evidence you have for such is you claiming I'm wrong and blind. You can't actually produce a logical argument to show how my position necessitates "Jesus is the son of himself", but you claim it anyway. Sorry, can you give a weaker argument? You were doing so well. What about my statements necessitates "Jesus is the son of himself"?
Hey, you are going to deny the truth no matter what and that is all part of the delusion that God has sent you because you really don't love the truth.

If you just going to excuse yourself from doing the hard work of justifying your previous claim, then I'll just move on to the next post. Get back to me when you have an answer to my question: What about my statements necessitates "Jesus is the son of himself"?

God Bless
 
That's not a personal attack. The above is an expression of the type of comments you just made.
definitely aimed at the person... Or else show what in the statement is an expression of immaturity...

It's not my fault your comments express immaturity. Mature comments seek to answer what the other person is saying as opposed to just verbalizing something to my comments that were cut to shreds, lacking any context.

I quote Scripture, you reject it. You quote the same while failing to realize that it still supports my position. Have fun rejecting Scripture.
You quote scripture then give comments as to what you think the scriptures mean.

As Jesus did. As Paul did. As John did. I guess that puts me in good company.

Silly goose, what makes you think I didn't know Christ = Messiah.
For starters you think the messiah is God.

As if that is a reason to think I didn't know Christ = Messiah.

Nice job cutting up my comments as to not understand the point I'm making or the question I'm asking.
If you cannot understand how I address your comments point by point and claim I cut them up. How can you understand the scriptures that is written in verses and chapters?

I understand you. You don't have a clue what I'm saying half the time because you cut up my comments as to lose context. When you cut my points in half, you are not longer responding point by point.

And, if you were a follower of Christ, you should go to those texts to show how my comments derail the Scripture as opposed to running away and just making accusations.
I already did.

If you believe you did, reference the post in which you go to those texts to show how my comments derail the Scripture. In reality, you didn't. You just think you did because you lost track of what you said in all these posts.

Are you going to answer my question: What part of your thinking requires you to jump from "the Father is, as to his nature, the only God that exists." to "there are three only Gods that exist."?
Your hypocrisy.

That's not a logical reason to infer anything. I guess you are just being irrational.

God Bless
 
It's not my fault your comments express immaturity.
It is your fault that you cannot show it. You are making claims but you cannot support them.
Mature comments seek to answer what the other person is saying as opposed to just verbalizing something to my comments that were cut to shreds, lacking any context.
Is that why yo are not answering what I am asking? I asked you to explain how the comments express immaturity.
As Jesus did. As Paul did. As John did. I guess that puts me in good company.
self praise...Jesus Paul and John wrote the truth while you are a stranger to the truth.
As if that is a reason to think I didn't know Christ = Messiah.
If you did you wouldn't be claiming Messiah is God.
I understand you.
Nice try
You don't have a clue what I'm saying half the time because you cut up my comments as to lose context.
The scripture is cut up in verses. Is that why you don't understand the scriptures?
When you cut my points in half, you are not longer responding point by point.
Show where your point was cut in half.
If you believe you did, reference the post in which you go to those texts to show how my comments derail the Scripture.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Scripture does not say "he and his father cannot be the same God".
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Nope, just one person with two natures.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Sorry, but there is no logical reason whatsoever to believe I'm actually claiming that Jesus is the Son of himself. Such is nothing but the expression of one choosing not to listen to the other side. Jesus, the Second person of the Trinity, is the Son of God, aka the First Person of the Trinity. That's our position, and there is no way of see such as Jesus is the son of himself.

All your comments here are derailing the scriptures...

In reality, you didn't. You just think you did because you lost track of what you said in all these posts.
You assume I did...
That's not a logical reason to infer anything. I guess you are just being irrational.
Why isn't your hypocrisy not a logical reason to infer ? You claim that God is a trinity. And you claim that Jesus is God. Is Jesus a trinity?
 
It is your fault that you cannot show it. You are making claims but you cannot support them.

Is that why yo are not answering what I am asking? I asked you to explain how the comments express immaturity.

self praise...Jesus Paul and John wrote the truth while you are a stranger to the truth.

If you did you wouldn't be claiming Messiah is God.

Nice try

The scripture is cut up in verses. Is that why you don't understand the scriptures?

Show where your point was cut in half.

DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Scripture does not say "he and his father cannot be the same God".
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Nope, just one person with two natures.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Sorry, but there is no logical reason whatsoever to believe I'm actually claiming that Jesus is the Son of himself. Such is nothing but the expression of one choosing not to listen to the other side. Jesus, the Second person of the Trinity, is the Son of God, aka the First Person of the Trinity. That's our position, and there is no way of see such as Jesus is the son of himself.

All your comments here are derailing the scriptures...


You assume I did...

Why isn't your hypocrisy not a logical reason to infer ? You claim that God is a trinity. And you claim that Jesus is God. Is Jesus a trinity?
The Bible says The Messiah is God.
 
Mature comments seek to answer what the other person is saying as opposed to just verbalizing something to my comments that were cut to shreds, lacking any context.
Is that why yo are not answering what I am asking? I asked you to explain how the comments express immaturity.

I just did. Read better.

As Jesus did. As Paul did. As John did. I guess that puts me in good company.
self praise...Jesus Paul and John wrote the truth while you are a stranger to the truth.

Comments like this are only meaningful when they can be backed up. You have shown yourself to be incapable of backing up almost any of your accusations. Anyway, my point still stands. Jesus, Paul and John quoted Scripture and then explained it. I quoted Scripture and explained it. If you think my explanation is incorrect, then do what Jesus, Paul and John did in such circumstances: quote Scripture and explain it. Don't pretend mindless repetition of Scripture is enough, or even praiseworthy. Such is disrespectful to your fellow man and to Scripture itself. But then again, if you did that, you would have to drop your silly attack of only using Bible words.

As if that is a reason to think I didn't know Christ = Messiah.
If you did you wouldn't be claiming Messiah is God.

The Messiah was both God and man. How does this imply I didn't know Christ = Messiah? You arguments are just silly.

You don't have a clue what I'm saying half the time because you cut up my comments as to lose context.
The scripture is cut up in verses. Is that why you don't understand the scriptures?
When you cut my points in half, you are not longer responding point by point.
Show where your point was cut in half.

You just cut my point in half again.

BTW, Scripture shouldn't be read cut up into verses. The verses are a creation of the 16th century to filcilate referencing a quotation. Outside helping in the referencing a passage, versification should be utterly
ignored when reading or studying Scripture.

If you believe you did, reference the post in which you go to those texts to show how my comments derail the Scripture.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Scripture does not say "he and his father cannot be the same God".
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Nope, just one person with two natures.
DoctrinesofGraceBapt said:
Sorry, but there is no logical reason whatsoever to believe I'm actually claiming that Jesus is the Son of himself. Such is nothing but the expression of one choosing not to listen to the other side. Jesus, the Second person of the Trinity, is the Son of God, aka the First Person of the Trinity. That's our position, and there is no way of see such as Jesus is the son of himself.
All your comments here are derailing the scriptures...

Referencing where I said things isn't evidence of you showing me anything. Epic fail. Reference the post in which you go to those texts to show how my comments derail the Scripture.

In reality, you didn't. You just think you did because you lost track of what you said in all these posts.
You assume I did...

I watch you lose track of the context all the time. For example last time, I said "you reject them", referencing particular verses in Scripture, and you took it that I was just saying you reject my comments. There is hardly a post you give where you don't lose track of some context because your too busy cutting up my statements as to follow what I'm actually saying. Here is another example. You tried to interject into my conversation with Yahweh will increase. Notice how many pieces you cut up my comments into and how Yahweh will increase keep my comments together in natural pieces as to interact directly with what I was saying. Because of this, most of his comments are meaningful while your's are full of confusion and misunderstanding.

That's not a logical reason to infer anything. I guess you are just being irrational.
Why isn't your hypocrisy not a logical reason to infer ? You claim that God is a trinity. And you claim that Jesus is God. Is Jesus a trinity?

Hypocrisy simply isn't the type of thing that warrants any logical inferences outside of motivations. But your conclusions have nothing to do with my motivations; therefore, there is no logical reason to infer anything about my argument from my supposed hypocrisy. Let alone the fact that your accusation of hypocrisy is likewise fallacious.

God Bless
 
Paranoid.
LOL! I don't need to be and for the simple reason that I have the very words from Jesus that support and seal my conversion in John 17:3 while you do not.

So then, suppose you show me where Jesus ever said that one must know God as three persons and believe that Jesus is one of those persons of God in order to have eternal life and be saved in the actual scriptures that you claim to believe in?
Claiming your conclusion as support for the justification of that conclusion is circular. You're are giving reasons why you think Jesus is the righteousness of God in 2 Peter 1:1 as opposed to "our God and Savor". And, your theology doesn't count. Biblical evidence please.
More words of manipulation and deceit, that is what you do with your little arguments like the one above and they might sound sufisticated unto the ignorant but not unto someone who has any real discernment of the Holy Spirit.

I don't think that this was the intended meaning by Peter, but I know it was in complete settled confidence, and something of which you can never truly have with your false doctrine because the Holy Spirit cannot endorse it as the truth in your heart when it isn't the truth.

Therefore any confidence you might in your deception think that you have, will soon enough vanish.

This is also why although you want everyone to believe that your confidence is solid by your interpretation of John 1:1 and John 20:28, it is never enough for you so that you have to search for more and more passages in the scripture that you can manipulate to secure the confidence that you claim that you aleardy have from John 1:1 and John 20:28.

You are ever learning and never able to come to a genuine knowledge of the truth that can truly create real genuine faith and confidence and this is why you have to keep searching and manipulating and adding to scriptures to prove to yourself over and over again what you claim that you already confident of.

For instance many of you trins on this forum will go to Genesis 18 and argue that it was a pre incarnate Jesus Christ who appeared and spoke as Yahweh when there is no support for this from any inspired by the Holy Spirit writer of the scriptures.

For the fact is, that the only thing that the narative of Genesis 18 can actually reveal for certain, is that Yahweh was that Yahweh God appeared and spoke to Abraham, but it does not support your added idea that this was Jesus Christ in a pre incarnate form like many of your cult claimes that it does.

Furthermore, to claim that it does, is to have a private interpretation of Genesis 18 not given by the Holy Spirit to any inspired writer of scripture and which also makes the one giving it a false teacher according to 2 Peter 1:20-21 right through 2 Peter chapter 2.

Just read 2 Peter 1:20-21 right into 2 Peter 2, for this is exactly what Peter is revealing




You are literally grasping at straws here. God being in Christ manifesting himself through him doesn't make Jesus "the righteousness of our God and Savior."
You have to use that and believe that, because otherwise you would be left with the fact that you are teaching false doctrine about this verse and therefore of course you are going to throw it back on to me with your "you are literally grasping at straws here" excuse for your own error about it.

That is all part of the deception that you are being deceived with.
My answering your argument for why Jesus is the righteousness of God in 2 Peter 1:1 is not off topic.

The fact is, you don't have any real argument for believing like you do either but you only deceive yourself into thinking that you do, but very soon now, I believe that God is going to restore unto the remnant of his true church the truth of his word that Satan all these years has tried to distort and make it as iron that cannot be refuted by anyone.

When this happens, you will either acknowledge The Father as The Only True God alone and Christ as his anointed image as a true human being or you will continue to believe in your false god and christ (the spirit of antichrist) and commit the abomination that will made you totally desolate.

For this will be the case once all ignorance is removed and God makes the true like iron that you can no longer deceive yourself about with your false doctrines.

This will also be when God is totally finished with his purpose for this old heaven and earth and therefore will bring in his judgment on all those who refuse to believe the truth.


I am not arguing that at all. You're the one saying Jesus is the righteousness; I'm not. I am simply recognizing that "Jesus Christ" is a genitive of apposition to the phrase "our God and Savor" in the Greek of 2 Peter 1:1. In this discussion, I'm simply interested in how you rationalize your position.

LOL! Once again, you are so blind and bias with false doctrine and the delusion that God has sent to you because you don't love the truth, that you don't even realize what you are doing, for you believe that Jesus had his own righteousness being God the Son and that is the same exact thing.

LOL! You and your worthless human reasoning and intellectual bunk "I am simply recognizing that "Jesus Christ" is a genitive of apposition to the phrase "our God and Savior".


Well then, I am simply recognizing that "Jesus Christ" is a gentive of apposition to the full phrase "the righteousness of our God and Savior"
If you just going to excuse yourself from doing the hard work of justifying your previous claim, then I'll just move on to the next post. Get back to me when you have an answer to my question: What about my statements necessitates "Jesus is the son of himself"?

God Bless
Be my guest, but the fact remains that when the scirptures say over and over again that Jesus is the Son of God and not specifically that he is the Son of God the Father, and you say that God is a trinity and that Jesus is himself God, then that would make Jesus the Son of himself as a trinity god and there is no way out of it either.

Hey, I don't have to justify anything because this is what you believe boils down to and whether you have enough common sense left to see and acknowledge this after all of your brainwashing in false doctrine or not.
 
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Hello, those are the words of Peter, the Apostle. And, you claim to reject said faith. In other words, you are not part of Christ's Church. You arrogantly think you can make your own assembly. Have fun making up your own religion. Muhammad and Joseph Smith seemed to enjoy the process. How many wives are you going to have?
I do not follow Peter, I follow Jesus, I do not follow Paul I follow Jesus, I do not follow any man, neither did Jesus, we get out=-r information directly from the creator if it.

You listen to everyone except Jesus.
Sorry, I don't believe the words of heretics like you. If you want to prove something, Use Scripture.
That is because you are one.
Are you "the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation."? You are nothing like Jesus.
Just as Jesus was, we have the same Father who is out=-r God.
Jesus literally walked on water. You play games with figurative language, imposter.
That is all a carnal mind can see of it. The spiritual mind see the truth in it where he walks on the storns of this carnal world.

Sense you say you follow thew ways of Christ, lets see you walk on the water and see how far you get!

A for me the storms of this life are under my feet, so was they under Jesus feet as well.


Not the same thing, imposter.
Not the same for your carnal mind I agree.
Sorry, I don't believe the words of heretics like you. If you want to prove something, Use Scripture.

God Bless
Oh yes you do indeed, for if you were of God as Jesus was you would be like Him instead of these who accuse Jesus of heresy when he said this of himself and his God who sent him. These call Jesus a liar and a heretic. You read what Jesus Said then turn right around and say it isn't true but is god himself do you not? And do not deny it for you are very clear that to you Jesus was a god and not what he said of himself and his God.

Your amateur providence is interfering with Gods order for you where stagnation spiritually never allows you to go on to a knowledge unknown to you and you are stuck in self reliance instead of letting God Himself open in you who He is and all of His heaven in you just as He did in Jesus in Matt 3:16 to gain a knowledge unknown to you from God Himself.

That what Jesus Said of himself and his God has no part in your heretical belief system.

John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 12:44-45. who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me. He who sees me sees Him who sent me.
John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Joihn 17:2-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come withj observation, it is withn you

John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
 
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