The truth and reality is the product of a believing mind.

Tercon

Well-known member
The truth and reality cannot be known to exist outside of a believing mind. And no-one has ever been able to refute this truth, because nothing can be known to exist outside of a believing mind.

Here is a list of things that cannot be known to exist, be experienced or be realized outside of a believing mind:
  • Truth
  • Logic
  • Morality
  • Mathematics
  • Reality
  • Existence
  • Consciousness
  • Belief
  • Love
  • Patience
  • QM Wave Function Collapse
  • QM Entanglement
  • Science
So, if the only way and place that these things can be known exist, be realized, implemented and undertaken is in and with a believing mind, then these things must be the product of a believing mind.

But if you disagree that these things are the product of a believing mind, then you must be able to at least provide another way, means or place by which these things can be known, realized, implemented and undertaken that isn't a believing mind.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
A human mind.

Truth is exclusively the product of the human mind.
Truth cannot be known to exist outside of a human mind.

Sorry but the truth and reality doesn't originate in and with you or me. However, it HAD to originate in and with a believing mind.

So, if it didn't originate in and with mine, yours or any other human believing mind, because as humans we all know it isn't us who is the source of the truth and reality, then in whose believing mind is the source of the truth and reality?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Sorry, but truth exists only in the human mind.

But the truth and reality always existed, because to suggest otherwise is self-refuting.
And if we know that humans didn't always exist, then in whose believing mind did the truth and reality always exist before humans existed?
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
Self refuting, no-one including you can know that the truth and reality didn't always exist, because you didn't always exist either.
Self-refuting, as you haven't shown how and why truth can be known to exist outside of your human mind
 
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Tercon

Well-known member
Self-refuting, as you haven't shown how and why truth can be known to exist outside of your human mind
Strawman, you have just discovered and demonstrated for us how and why the truth isn't known to you in and with your unbelieving mind silly.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
The truth and reality cannot be known to exist outside of a believing mind. And no-one has ever been able to refute this truth, because nothing can be known to exist outside of a believing mind.

Here is a list of things that cannot be known to exist, be experienced or be realized outside of a believing mind:
  • Truth
  • Logic
  • Morality
  • Mathematics
  • Reality
  • Existence
  • Consciousness
  • Belief
  • Love
  • Patience
  • QM Wave Function Collapse
  • QM Entanglement
  • Science
The list is redundant. Nothing can be known outside a mind. Your list should include everything that is known, not just a few arbitrary concepts.
[QUOTE y
So, if the only way and place that these things can be known exist, be realized, implemented and undertaken is in and with a believing mind, then these things must be the product of a believing mind.[/QUOTE] This is not true. "Being known by" and "being produced by" are not synonyms.

But if you disagree that these things are the product of a believing mind, then you must be able to at least provide another way, means or place by which these things can be known, realized, implemented and undertaken that isn't a believing mind.
This is not true either if you want to show that nothing can exist without being known to exist, then you must prove that it is impossible. Taking the example of the collapse of a quantum wave function for example. This is happening all the time. All that it requires is for the coherence of the quantum state to collapse. All that needs is for other particles that are not part of the same coherent set to interact with it. This happens billions of times a second in the sun as hydrogen fusion creates helium. All unobserved and unknown. The trope that it requires a conscious observer to collapse the function is just that, a trope. A lay person's misunderstanding of the uncertainty principle. You don't understand logic. Don't even try to understand quantum mechanics.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
So, if the only way and place that these things can be known exist, be realized, implemented and undertaken is in and with a believing mind, then these things must be the product of a believing mind.
That doesn't follow, and you haven't justified this statement.
But if you disagree that these things are the product of a believing mind, then you must be able to at least provide another way, means or place by which these things can be known, realized, implemented and undertaken that isn't a believing mind.
Just because someone might not do this, doesn't mean you are right.

You have a burden of proof that you have not met.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
You still haven't shown how truth can be known to exist outside your human mind.

Strawman and projection, because that's your job. My claim is that 'the truth and reality can't be known to exist outside of a believing mind'. And it is you who thinks the "truth can be known to exist outside" a believing mind. That is what it is the have a unbelieving mind, you think belief isn't necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
That doesn't follow, and you haven't justified this statement.
Sure it has been justified, it is because the truth and reality cannot be known to exist anywhere else but in and with a believing mind. As there is nothing known to exist that possesses the function of belief like a believing mind provides and you can't show otherwise.

So, if the only way and place that these things can be known exist, be realized, implemented and undertaken is in and with a believing mind, then these things must be the product of a believing mind.

Just because someone might not do this, doesn't mean you are right.

Actually my claim is that it literally impossible to do so, because all of those things cannot be known or undertaken without a believing mind,. And it is like this because they are in fact the product of a believing mind. Just not ours.

You have a burden of proof that you have not met.

And I have done so. I have shown that the truth and reality cannot be known to exist without or outside of a believing mind.

I know this to be true because of the reasons I have listed above.

Now, if you disagree, then you need to show how and why the reasons I gave are false or illogical. And no-one has done that yet.

I have bolded my reasons above, so now you need to tell me how and why these reasons are false or illogical.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
Strawman and projection, because that's your job.
According to the truth which only exists in your mind.

You run away as soon as anyone challenges you to demonstrate that your claims are true. Sorry, but it's a fact that truth only exists in the human mind, and you can't show any differently.

Failing to show this proves that your claims have been refuted ;)
 

J regia

Well-known member
Strawman and projection, because that's your job. My claim is that 'the truth and reality can't be known to exist outside of a believing mind'. And it is you who thinks the "truth can be known to exist outside" a believing mind. That is what it is the have a unbelieving mind, you think belief isn't necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you.
Which is why the biblical writers described Earth as a flat immovable disc with ends and corners, and described the universe as a dome shaped tent attached to the circle of the horizon (Isaiah 40:22 Matt 4:8), which were created less than 6000 years ago (Gen 1 Luke 3).

And why they didn't describe Earth as a rotating spheroid orbiting the sun, and didn't describe the universe as being billions of years old, since truth and reality can't be known to exist outside of a believing mind.
 
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