The truth and reality is the product of a believing mind.

Tercon

Well-known member
No I am not. Stop trying to tell people what they are saying. You are always wrong.

Got to, when what you are saying nonsense.

The issue is not whether a mind is needed for the occurrence of QM events to be made known. No-one disagrees with that, and there is nothing special about QM that makes it so. All knowledge requires a mind. The further incorrect point that you keep making and being corrected upon is your silly claim that QM events require a mind in order to occur.

Well just explain how and why wave function collapse and entanglement can occur without "consciousness" or a believing mind making them known to occur in silly?
 
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Tercon

Well-known member
Tercon still can't show that truth exists outside the human mind.

Strawman, actually that's exactly what I am trying to show silly. Everything including the truth, logic, morality, QM, consciousness and existence requires and entails a believing mind in order to be known to exist and be experienced. Therefore, these things must be the product of a believing mind. But it is good to see that you are starting to come around to the truth and reality that can only be known to you in and with your own believing mind, because if you have no skin in the game; then you don't even get to play.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Got to, when what you are saying nonsense.
To know that you'd first have to understand what the other person is saying, and you never do.

Well just explain how and why wave function collapse and entanglement can occur without "consciousness" or a believing mind making them known to occur in silly?
Occurring, and being made known to occur are two very different things. Only one of them requires a mind.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
To know that you'd first have to understand what the other person is saying, and you never do.

There is no understanding nonsense and the figments of a deluded mind, they are only for correcting.

Occurring, and being made known to occur are two very different things. Only one of them requires a mind.

Actually according to wave function collapse and entanglement, neither can occur without a believing mind giving it a way and place to occur. And that supports my claim that the truth, logic, reality, wave function collapse and entanglement is the product of a believing mind. And no-one including you and Carroll have shown otherwise.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Pointing out that you can't show truth exists outside of the human mind isn't a strawman.

It's an absolute fact.

If nothing can be known to exist without a believing mind making it known to us, then the truth and reality must be a believing mind in order for it to be made known to us, because outside of a believing mind no truth and reality can be known to us.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Thanks for proving me right.

You can't show that truth exists outside the human mind.

Strawman.

Actually you just showed that the truth and reality must be a believing mind. And that you can't know the truth and reality without believing it first silly. In other words the mode by which the truth and reality is made known is unknown to you, because of your unbelief in the truth and reality.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
There is no understanding nonsense and the figments of a deluded mind, they are only for correcting.
That you think what professional physicists and other intelligent posters here say is nonsense just confirms my point that you don't understand anything anyone says to you.

Actually according to wave function collapse and entanglement, neither can occur without a believing mind giving it a way and place to occur.
Completely unsupported, and not what the actual physicists say.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
That you think what professional physicists and other intelligent posters here say is nonsense just confirms my point that you don't understand anything anyone says to you.

Absolutely. As you have shown me that the last thing unbelievers want to know is how and why the truth and reality is known to them.

Completely unsupported, and not what the actual physicists say.

Then how come you and Carroll can't explain how and why wave function collapse and entanglement can occur without a believing mind in order to occur in and with silly?

Actually according to wave function collapse and entanglement, neither can occur without a believing mind giving it a way and place to occur.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Thanks for running away like you usually do!

If you could show that truth exists outside of the human mind, you'd do this instantly - because your ridiculous argument is predicated upon it.

You cannot, however ;)
Strawman.

Actually you just showed that the truth and reality must be a believing mind. And that you can't know the truth and reality without believing it first silly. In other words the mode by which the truth and reality is made known is unknown to you, because of your unbelief in the truth and reality.

How come you and Carroll can't explain how and why wave function collapse and entanglement can occur without a believing mind in order to occur in and to be known with silly?
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
It's okay to be confused. But it's not okay for you to be evasive and dishonest like this. Did you even read what you were replying to? My post had nothing to do with QM, and was directly addressing the ambiguity of your opening sentence in the OP. The question here is whether two true sentences speaking of the same location about two different subjects say the same thing (with no ambiguity) or say two different things (producing ambiguity). So put your big boy pants on and try addressing the point by answering the question:

1) My bike is in my garage.
2) My car is in my garage.

Both true. Both speak of the same location. But they have different subjects, and therefore different meanings. Agreed? (Note that I am NOT asking about where these things exist or where they are knowable. The ONLY point at issue here is whether they have the same or different meanings.)

So do (1) and (2) say the same thing? Or do they say different things?
Bump for the perennially ambiguous Tercon.
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Bump for the perennially ambiguous Tercon.
Strawman. Pretending belief isn't necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you isn't going to help you know the truth and reality known to you silly. It just makes it unknown to you instead.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Strawman. Pretending belief isn't necessary in order to make the truth and reality known to you isn't going to help you know the truth and reality known to you silly. It just makes it unknown to you instead.
When someone bumps a post, it is so that you can address the content of the bumped post. Here you have not done so.
 

TeabagSalad

Active member
If you spent 3 years learning that anything regards to the truth and reality including QM doesn't require and entail "consciousness" or a believing mind, then you should get a refund, because you learned how to be deceived. As everything including QM requires and entails "consciousness" and a believing mind for its occurrence., because in reality Wave Function Collapse and Entanglement can ONLY be known to occur in and with a believing mind. And you cannot show otherwise.

Events in the real world don't need a mind or consciousness to happen. Most people understand this once they develop "object permanence" at around 9-12 months old. Quantum events are no different, they can occur without any mind knowing anything about them.

For example, the microprocessor in the device that you use to post here contains billions of transistors, each one of these will form millions of wave functions that will collapse without anyone knowing about it every second.

Please explain how YOU KNOW Wave Function Collapse and Entanglement can occur without your "consciousness" and your believing mind giving it a way and place in order to occur silly?

Because I have performed experiments which show that wave function collapse has happened (billions of times) without my, or anyone else knowing anything about it.

You don't seem to understand that things can occur outside of your mind. Do you really think that everything has to happen inside a mind?

You are delusional if you think that the laws of logical truth and reality don't apply in and to QM as well. That's the first mistake you make in interpreting QM.

Quantum Mechanics is one of the theories that tells us what the "laws of logic and truth" actually are. It is a model of reality which very accurately describes the way in which the universe works.

Oh, and one of the most important things that it tells us is that there are some things that no mind can ever know. This is known as the Uncertainty Principle.
 

Whateverman

Well-known member
Thanks for running away like you usually do!

If you could show that truth exists outside of the human mind, you'd do this instantly - because your ridiculous argument is predicated upon it.

You cannot, however ;)
Strawman.
Run away, Tercon! Keep those Nikes-a-flappin!

Show everyone that truth exists outside of the human mind.

Don't you have the courage of your convictions?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Events in the real world don't need a mind or consciousness to happen.

What "real world" event are you referring to that didn't require your "mind or consciousness" in order to be known to "happen" silly?

Most people understand this once they develop "object permanence" at around 9-12 months old. Quantum events are no different, they can occur without any mind knowing anything about them.

Which "Quantum events" "can occur without" YOUR "mind knowing anything about them" silly?

For example, the microprocessor in the device that you use to post here contains billions of transistors, each one of these will form millions of wave functions that will collapse without anyone knowing about it every second.

Utter nonsense, as computers can't believe and thus give physicality a way and place to occur, because it is ONLY a believing mind that can make this occur and outside of a believing mind it can't be known to occur.
And BTW, computers are the product of believing minds as well or did you forget that silly?

Because I have performed experiments which show that wave function collapse has happened (billions of times) without my, or anyone else knowing anything about it.

Please explain how you witnessed "wave function collapse" occur without "knowing anything about it" silly?

You don't seem to understand that things can occur outside of your mind. Do you really think that everything has to happen inside a mind?

Yes.
That why I claim that everything including the truth and reality is the product of a believing mind, because it is ONLY in and with a believing mind that everything including the truth, reality and all of its occurrences can be known and witnessed to occur. And you have never shown otherwise.

But if you can show just one other way or place outside of a believing mind that possesses the capacity of belief besides a believing mind, then I am ready to hear it.

Quantum Mechanics is one of the theories that tells us what the "laws of logic and truth" actually are. It is a model of reality which very accurately describes the way in which the universe works.

Yes. And because if QM is still governed by the "laws of logic and truth" and that's exactly why I claim "observation and measurement" entails a believing mind and is still required in all QM models, then this implies that even physical occurrences too rely on a believing mind in order to have a way and place to occur. Understand? And I have never seen anyone that was able to show how and why "observation and measurement" wasn't necessary or entailed in QM modeling.

But if you are able to demonstrate how and why "observation", "measurement" and a believing mind isn't required and entailed in your interpretation of QM models, then march that bad boy out here and let me hear what you have to say.

Oh, and one of the most important things that it tells us is that there are some things that no mind can ever know. This is known as the Uncertainty Principle.

Please name just one thing "that no mind can ever know" silly?
 

Tercon

Well-known member
Bump for the perennially ambiguous Tercon.

But when you bump a post it is because you can't refute its content.

Run away, Tercon! Keep those Nikes-a-flappin!

Show everyone that truth exists outside of the human mind.

Don't you have the courage of your convictions?

I have enough sense of the truth and reality to know that neither can be known to exist or occur anywhere else but a believing mind. How about you silly?
 
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