The Ultimate Apologetic

Unknown Soldier

Active member
Most apologists rely on wordy arguments to defend belief in the promises of salvation from Jesus. While it is necessary to articulate the Gospel telling people about it, we need to show people Jesus too. In fact, our living according to the Gospel I think is what really demonstrates the wisdom and love of Christ to people. Paul tells us in Romans 2:13:

For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight but the doers of the law who will be justified.

We are also told by Jesus in Matthew 5:15:

People do not light a lamp and put it under the bushel basket; rather, they put it on the lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house.

The "light" Jesus is speaking of here is the goodness and love of the Christian walk. If we can demonstrate that the infilling of the Holy Ghost has granted us Godly wisdom and love and caring above what merely being human can achieve, then I think the "skeptics" will come around to belief in Christ. Let's all live the life of Christ.
 

Deuteronomy

Member
I agree with you @Unknown Soldier, that we need to preach the Gospel AND live it out before others whenever possible. IOW, this is a both/and situation rather than an either/or, because along with the Scriptures that you posited for us above in your OP, the Bible also tells us that,

Romans 10
17 Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

We are to love others, and this certainly includes speaking the truth to them about their great need for the Savior (which is, unfortunately, something that they may not want to hear from us, but that they need to hear from us nevertheless .. because if we don't tell them what the truth really is, who will :unsure:).

~Deuteronomy



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Unknown Soldier

Active member
I agree with you @Unknown Soldier, that we need to preach the Gospel AND live it out before others whenever possible. IOW, this is a both/and situation rather than an either/or, because along with the Scriptures that you posited for us above in your OP, the Bible also tells us that,

Romans 10
17 Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

We are to love others, and this certainly includes speaking the truth to them about their great need for the Savior (which is, unfortunately, something that they may not want to hear from us, but that they need to hear from us nevertheless .. because if we don't tell them what the truth really is, who will :unsure:).
Actually, preaching is for those already in the faith. What I'm suggesting is that we show the unconverted the love and goodness of God to impress them with the thought that something very out of the ordinary in a positive way has taken place in our lives. The Holy Ghost has miraculous powers to regenerate us in miraculous ways. That regeneration includes our care and concern for others in particular those less fortunate than ourselves. Also, when engaging unbelievers, we should treat them with the utmost respect and be fully open to any truths they know.
~Deuteronomy


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I don't completely agree with Spurgeon here. I'm not suggesting that any kind of force or coercion be used with unbelievers. I'm saying we can and should act in such a way that any reasonable person would want to do likewise. That's what keeps people out of hell.
 

Deuteronomy

Member
Actually, preaching is for those already in the faith. What I'm suggesting is that we show the unconverted the love and goodness of God to impress them with the thought that something very out of the ordinary in a positive way has taken place in our lives. The Holy Ghost has miraculous powers to regenerate us in miraculous ways. That regeneration includes our care and concern for others in particular those less fortunate than ourselves. Also, when engaging unbelievers, we should treat them with the utmost respect and be fully open to any truths they know.
Hello again Unknown Soldier, I agree that expository and/or topical preaching in church is for believers (as that is who church is really for), but the preaching of "the Gospel", be it by witnessing, evangelism, or even by apologetics, is for the unsaved (obviously), as those who have already been saved already know the Gospel.

As for ~showing~ the love and goodness of God to others, I have often thought that I was experiencing that very thing many times over the years, with many different people, only to find out when I asked them if they were Christians that they were not, that these were simply kind, generous people, but of a completely different faith, or of no faith at all.

Acting like a Christian is supposed to act can be very impactful when we are witnessing/preaching the Gospel to someone (or as a way to gain people's trust and, thereby, give more weight to what we are about to tell them/have told them), but acts of kindness ~by themselves/without words~ will never lead anyone to saving faith in Jesus Christ.

How could they :unsure:


I don't completely agree with Spurgeon here. I'm not suggesting that any kind of force or coercion be used with unbelievers. I'm saying we can and should act in such a way that any reasonable person would want to do likewise. That's what keeps people out of hell.
Spurgeon is using hyperbole to make his point in that quote (about how important & necessary witnessing is for each and every believer to do), ~especially~ since so many of us are so uncomfortable with it that we never (or rarely) engage in it.

He isn't suggesting that we 'force' people to consider the Gospel by (literally) grabbing onto them and not letting them go until they cry "uncle" ;), rather, he's saying that we need to take whatever steps that we are led to take (by the HS) while making every effort that we can to see unbelievers come to saving faith (instead of saying nothing and allowing them to continue on their way towards eternity in the Lake of Fire).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - on a bit of a different note, here's another Christian quote about evangelism and why we need to get it right. I believe that this is one that you, of all people, would agree with.



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Gary Mac

Well-known member
Actually, preaching is for those already in the faith. What I'm suggesting is that we show the unconverted the love and goodness of God to impress them with the thought that something very out of the ordinary in a positive way has taken place in our lives. The Holy Ghost has miraculous powers to regenerate us in miraculous ways. That regeneration includes our care and concern for others in particular those less fortunate than ourselves. Also, when engaging unbelievers, we should treat them with the utmost respect and be fully open to any truths they know.

I don't completely agree with Spurgeon here. I'm not suggesting that any kind of force or coercion be used with unbelievers. I'm saying we can and should act in such a way that any reasonable person would want to do likewise. That's what keeps people out of hell.
Actually to have the mind of Christ, Gods anointing, is what keeps one out of hell. Heaven and hell, Gods kingdom, doesnt come with observation, it is within you. Luke 17:20-21. You are of one or the other this day.
 

Unknown Soldier

Active member
Hello again Unknown Soldier, I agree that expository and/or topical preaching in church is for believers (as that is who church is really for), but the preaching of "the Gospel", be it by witnessing, evangelism, or even by apologetics, is for the unsaved (obviously), as those who have already been saved already know the Gospel.
It might seem counter-intuitive, but many of those who call themselves saved are actually quite ignorant of the Gospel while many unbelievers know the Gospel well and may even be experts in it. That's why I think that preaching to the unconverted can be risky if the preacher makes claims that the unbeliever knows to be untrue. Moreover, most unbelievers might see the "preached Gospel" as irrelevant or even silly. So if you go the route of preaching to the unconverted, then it's wise to make sure you get your facts straight, and take care not to tell them what they don't find important.
As for ~showing~ the love and goodness of God to others, I have often thought that I was experiencing that very thing many times over the years, with many different people, only to find out when I asked them if they were Christians that they were not, that these were simply kind, generous people, but of a completely different faith, or of no faith at all.
That's correct, and that's why I see the work of the Holy Ghost as granting love and goodness beyond what is humanly possible. It's a sign that we Christians have the backing of God Himself.
Acting like a Christian is supposed to act can be very impactful when we are witnessing/preaching the Gospel to someone (or as a way to gain people's trust and, thereby, give more weight to what we are about to tell them/have told them), but acts of kindness ~by themselves/without words~ will never lead anyone to saving faith in Jesus Christ. How could they :unsure:
My view on this issue is that if we are "miraculously" loving and kind, then doing so should rouse curiosity in people prompting them to ask questions. We can then answer those questions filling people in on why we do what we do and do it so well. The best way to preach is to preach upon request!
Spurgeon is using hyperbole to make his point in that quote (about how important & necessary witnessing is for each and every believer to do), ~especially~ since so many of us are so uncomfortable with it that we never (or rarely) engage in it.
Exactly. I think we can make preaching far "more comfortable" if we inspire people to want to be preached to. If they see we are doing amazingly well, then they'll probably want to know why we do so well.
He isn't suggesting that we 'force' people to consider the Gospel by (literally) grabbing onto them and not letting them go until they cry "uncle" ;), rather, he's saying that we need to take whatever steps that we are led to take (by the HS) while making every effort that we can to see unbelievers come to saving faith (instead of saying nothing and allowing them to continue on their way towards eternity in the Lake of Fire).
Be very careful about preaching hell because unbelievers may see you as desperate using fear tactics to intimidate them.
p.s. - on a bit of a different note, here's another Christian quote about evangelism and why we need to get it right. I believe that this is one that you, of all people, would agree with.


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It appears that Pink is saying that we may lower the bar too much possibly giving the unconverted the impression that they can be saved without repentance. Yes, Christ came to save us from sin because sin is a hell in its own way. There's nothing good about sin at least in the long run. Whatever pleasure it may give us in the short run is more than defeated by the misery it causes in the long run.

Anyway, to finish this post allow me to say that the Holy Ghost, being God, has the power to impress all people with the goodness, love, and integrity of those who He infills. He works miracles in that way. And people, by and large, take notice of miracles, so let them take notice of our miraculously good lives!
 

Unknown Soldier

Active member
Actually to have the mind of Christ, Gods anointing, is what keeps one out of hell. Heaven and hell, Gods kingdom, doesnt come with observation, it is within you. Luke 17:20-21. You are of one or the other this day.
Hi Gary!

I'm glad to see you have the mind of Christ and have God's anointing. I'm interested in how the resulting love and goodness of Jesus on your part has wowed unbelievers. They can't help but be impressed with a man who has observed God's kingdom and has it in him. So who have you inspired to follow your miracle to commit their lives to Jesus and be saved?
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
Hi Gary!

I'm glad to see you have the mind of Christ and have God's anointing. I'm interested in how the resulting love and goodness of Jesus on your part has wowed unbelievers.
Probably the same way the unbelievers were wowed at Jesus for being anointed of God. They hung him on a cross.
They can't help but be impressed with a man who has observed God's kingdom and has it in him.
Agreed.
So who have you inspired to follow your miracle to commit their lives to Jesus and be saved?
Im glad that you asked perhaps it will help you understand what it is to have Gods mind, which simply is Love.

Most of them I never even got their name. I didnt keep a head count for I did prison ministry for over 25 years and counseled with many inmates over the state of Texas. Some came to the knowledge of God but most didnt. And. I did street ministry for over 15 years feeding and clothing those in need and some of them came to the knowledge of God. I worked with the Texas Youth Commission for many years and saw some young teens come to the knowledge of God but most didnt.

I retired from going to these places in 2005 got to old to make the trips. The only reason I did it was because of love for the lost that there really is a better way to life than sitting in prison cell. I always asked them would you rather be out here with me or live in that toilet with a bed? Some came out of prison and started their own fellowships. As a result I really dont know how many came to God by just loving them enough to care and help if I could. I didnt get paid for it,I did it because I love them.

I would take men and women from various churches to come and go with me to these prisons and watch how God does those miracles and changes lives.

What is ironic is the lives who were changed are the church people I took with me. Many never even had led not one person to the Lord and astonished what one can achieve if he does have Love as their motive and actually exercise a little faith.

How about you I'm interested how many have you inspired to come to God and follow your miracles to commit their lives to God and be saved?

I really cant say how many for me. And what really is sad is that most calling themselves Christian mock me for actually doing what God commands of us all, and because they cant be like the God who is Love -- to them Im a sinner, a liar, a blasphemer, only because they dont have enough faith to be these things God commands of them to walk as He walks with the same signs following.

To me it is all Joy when these treat me as they treated Jesus for the very same reason. My identity is with Him and religious minds as you just displayed and mocked the way of God to works miracles in lives with this snide remark of -- "So who have you inspired to follow your miracle to commit their lives to Jesus and be saved?" Which I answered honestly.

Im curious about yourself as to the miracles you have performed to get people into God kingdom as in Luke 17:20-21?

Inmates were a lot easier to tome to God than church people are. That is exactly why Jesus didnt pick church people to follow him, they didn't have anything to unlearn from religious minds. It was church people who had Jesus crucified for blaspheme. And they do the same today with we who actually are anointed of God, Christ in us.

You are perfect example for this.
 
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Deuteronomy

Member
It might seem counter-intuitive, but many of those who call themselves saved are actually quite ignorant of the Gospel while many unbelievers know the Gospel well and may even be experts in it.
Hello Unknown Soldier, I wasn't referring to CINO's (the kind of people that Matthew 7:22-23 refers to, for instance), but to 'true' believers, you know, those who have actually been regenerated and justified by God, those who have already come to true, saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (rather than those who only "claim" to have been).

For what it's worth, I was such a person. I was baptized as an infant and raised (so to speak) in the church, and I loved it, for the most part anyway. I went to Sunday School, sung in the children's choir, was confirmed, went on retreats, and then attended church regularly through high school. However, I all but left the church completely in college to live a very fun and very sin-filled life instead.

Nevertheless, I still considered myself a Christian, until the day that I finally become one that is, two months after my 30th birthday. That's when EVERYTHING changed, PTL :)

Finally, while I agree with you that there are CERTAIN unbelievers who are experts in the Gospel (I have a friend, for instance, a now Conservative Rabbi, who did his doctrinal dissertation on the Gospel of John at a Reformed Jewish seminary, and he can explain the Gospel as well as any pastor or theologian I know), their problem isn't due to a lack of worldly knowledge about the Bible, obviously, it's due to their inability to understand it from God's "spiritual" POV .. please take special note of v14 in this passage in regard to such people ..
1 Corinthians 2:12-16. Practically speaking, they KNOW it (the Gospel, that is) but they don't BELIEVE it, because they have no ability within themselves to do so .. again, please take careful note of 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2:14.

But TRUE believers are NEVER "ignorant of the Gospel", and those are the ones (true believers) who I was obviously referring to in my post.

That's why I think that preaching to the unconverted can be risky if the preacher makes claims that the unbeliever knows to be untrue. Moreover, most unbelievers might see the "preached Gospel" as irrelevant or even silly. So if you go the route of preaching to the unconverted, then it's wise to make sure you get your facts straight, and take care not to tell them what they don't find important.
When you speak of preaching (presenting) a lie (instead of the Gospel) to the lost, what and/or who are you referring to, exactly :unsure:

Finally, I think that I may be using the word "preaching" in a more loosely defined/broader sense than you are, just FYI.

Thanks!

~Deuteronomy
 
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Unknown Soldier

Active member
Probably the same way the unbelievers were wowed at Jesus for being anointed of God. They hung him on a cross.
I do hope that you haven't been crucified.
Im glad that you asked perhaps it will help you understand what it is to have Gods mind, which simply is Love.
So I see you love. Is it safe to say you love all others, and they can see it? They should be amazed and attribute your love to God.
Most of them I never even got their name. I didnt keep a head count for I did prison ministry for over 25 years and counseled with many inmates over the state of Texas. Some came to the knowledge of God but most didnt. And. I did street ministry for over 15 years feeding and clothing those in need and some of them came to the knowledge of God. I worked with the Texas Youth Commission for many years and saw some young teens come to the knowledge of God but most didnt.
Then your good deeds didn't necessarily impress people as coming from God.
I retired from going to these places in 2005 got to old to make the trips. The only reason I did it was because of love for the lost that there really is a better way to life than sitting in prison cell. I always asked them would you rather be out here with me or live in that toilet with a bed? Some came out of prison and started their own fellowships. As a result I really dont know how many came to God by just loving them enough to care and help if I could. I didnt get paid for it,I did it because I love them.

I would take men and women from various churches to come and go with me to these prisons and watch how God does those miracles and changes lives.

What is ironic is the lives who were changed are the church people I took with me. Many never even had led not one person to the Lord and astonished what one can achieve if he does have Love as their motive and actually exercise a little faith.
That's an amazing resume. Most ministries evangelize those already in prison helping to free those prisoners. I wish there were more "preventative" ministries that get to people before they are sentenced to prisons.
How about you I'm interested how many have you inspired to come to God and follow your miracles to commit their lives to God and be saved?
I'm really not sure how many I've brought to the Lord. I'm a "baby Christian" having recently converted, and I think I need more time. I see that many here on this board need to be freed of their sins, and I've tried to get them to repent.
I really cant say how many for me. And what really is sad is that most calling themselves Christian mock me for actually doing what God commands of us all, and because they cant be like the God who is Love -- to them Im a sinner, a liar, a blasphemer, only because they dont have enough faith to be these things God commands of them to walk as He walks with the same signs following.
There is a lot of infighting among God's people.
To me it is all Joy when these treat me as they treated Jesus for the very same reason. My identity is with Him and religious minds as you just displayed and mocked the way of God to works miracles in lives with this snide remark of -- "So who have you inspired to follow your miracle to commit their lives to Jesus and be saved?" Which I answered honestly.
Jesus commands us to be joyful when we are reviled for his sake, for great is our reward in heaven!
Im curious about yourself as to the miracles you have performed to get people into God kingdom as in Luke 17:20-21?
Again, I don't know of any specific examples of any person I've led to the Lord.
Inmates were a lot easier to tome to God than church people are. That is exactly why Jesus didnt pick church people to follow him, they didn't have anything to unlearn from religious minds. It was church people who had Jesus crucified for blaspheme. And they do the same today with we who actually are anointed of God, Christ in us.
Jesus came for sinners to see them repent.
You are perfect example for this.
A perfect example of what? "Church people" or a person actually anointed of God?
 

Unknown Soldier

Active member
Hello Unknown Soldier, I wasn't referring to CINO's (the kind of people that Matthew 7:22-23 refers to, for instance), but to 'true' believers, you know, those who have actually been regenerated and justified by God, those who have already come to true, saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (rather than those who only "claim" to have been).
I've yet to meet a Christian who says she is not a true Christian. Again, a true conversion is evidenced by a miraculous change in one's life on the part of the Holy Ghost.
For what it's worth, I was such a person. I was baptized as an infant and raised (so to speak) in the church, and I loved it, for the most part anyway. I went to Sunday School, sung in the children's choir, was confirmed, went on retreats, and then attended church regularly through high school. However, I all but left the church completely in college to live a very fun and very sin-filled life instead.

Nevertheless, I still considered myself a Christian, until the day that I finally become one that is, two months after my 30th birthday. That's when EVERYTHING changed, PTL
Change is an integral part of the Holy Ghost's regeneration. No change--no true conversion.
Finally, while I agree with you that there are CERTAIN unbelievers who are experts in the Gospel (I have a friend, for instance, a now Conservative Rabbi, who did his doctrinal dissertation on the Gospel of John at a Reformed Jewish seminary, and he can explain the Gospel as well as any pastor or theologian I know), their problem isn't due to a lack of worldly knowledge about the Bible, obviously, it's due to their inability to understand it from God's "spiritual" POV .. please take special note of v14 in this passage in regard to such people .. 1 Corinthians 2:12-16. Practically speaking, they KNOW it (the Gospel, that is) but they don't BELIEVE it, because they have no ability within themselves to do so .. again, please take careful note of 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2:14.
Many Jews know the New Testament better than most Christians do. If you were to misquote the Gospel, they could spot it realizing that your Christian walk is less than what the Holy Ghost might accomplish.
But TRUE believers are NEVER "ignorant of the Gospel", and those are the ones (true believers) who I was obviously referring to in my post.
That's correct. The Holy Ghost imparts knowledge of salvation to the truly saved Christian.
When you speak of preaching (presenting) a lie (instead of the Gospel) to the lost, what and/or who are you referring to, exactly :unsure:
I wouldn't say a falsehood on the part of an evangelist is necessarily a lie; evangelists can make honest errors. Some evangelists like Kent Hovind make errors about the Theory of Evolution misrepresenting it. An unbeliever who knows his science will spot those errors and realize that no Holy Ghost indwells Kent Hovind!
 

Deuteronomy

Member
That's correct, and that's why I see the work of the Holy Ghost as granting love and goodness beyond what is humanly possible. It's a sign that we Christians have the backing of God Himself.

My view on this issue is that if we are "miraculously" loving and kind, then doing so should rouse curiosity in people prompting them to ask questions. We can then answer those questions filling people in on why we do what we do and do it so well. The best way to preach is to preach upon request!
OK, so we are really saying the same thing, preaching/presenting the Gospel is (typically) the result of living it out/living the Christian faith before others (good works) ~PLUS~ the use of words to speak the Gospel to them, IOW, it's not simply being so nice/good to people that they (somehow magically) choose to become believers on that basis alone.

Many believe that however, or they at least hope that it is true anyway, since they find actual witnessing to others so abhorrent (the itinerant preacher, St, Francis of Assai, has been falsely credited over the years as one who taught/believed that we should, "preach the Gospel daily, if necessary, use words", but there is nothing written by him, nor any "lifestyle" evidence, that he ever believed such a thing .. he is famous for preaching not simply to people, but to animals as well, which is something that we have historical confirmation of).

As theologian Ligon Duncan has said about this, "saying 'preach the Gospel daily, use words if necessary', is just like saying 'feed the poor daily, use food if necessary'" :)

God bless you!

~Deuteronomy
p.s. - if you are interested, here is an article about St. Francis of Assai on this topic: https://www.ncregister.com/blog/what-st-francis-of-assisi-didn-t-actually-say
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
I do hope that you haven't been crucified.
Some here would like to LOL.
So I see you love. Is it safe to say you love all others, and they can see it? They should be amazed and attribute your love to God.
Without doubt.
Then your good deeds didn't necessarily impress people as coming from God.
Not to those who have not met Him to do His same will.
That's an amazing resume. Most ministries evangelize those already in prison helping to free those prisoners. I wish there were more "preventative" ministries that get to people before they are sentenced to prisons.
They would if the church would be that person of Christ they are supposed to be. But religious minds out for enterprise won't let it.
I'm really not sure how many I've brought to the Lord. I'm a "baby Christian" having recently converted, and I think I need more time. I see that many here on this board need to be freed of their sins, and I've tried to get them to repent.
Describe converted? Converted to what? What man tells you from their perspective or -- Ask God Himself to open who He is in you.

Seek ye first the kingdom of God, dont seek what another says about Him.
There is a lot of infighting among God's people.
Not in Gods people, we are all the same in Him. It is the religious sects who are at dispute about their gods and argue about them.
Jesus commands us to be joyful when we are reviled for his sake, for great is our reward in heaven!
And the reward is the kingdom of God doesnt come with observation, it is within you. Luke 17:20-21.
Again, I don't know of any specific examples of any person I've led to the Lord.
I understand and that isn't something to be measured by in the Father. It was a difficult thing for me to go into prisons at first, and you would not believe some of the things I saw there, but I didnt give up for Love would not let me give up. And some lives was changed.

Im an old man now and my only outlet to be that witness of God manifest in man is to repeat it in forums like this one.
Jesus came for sinners to see them repent.
Jesus was sent by God to show us what it is to have the same from God as he had from God.
A perfect example of what? "Church people" or a person actually anointed of God?
A person who is anointed of God is no different from the anointing Jesus had in our God. Same signs follow us. Perfect even as our Father in heaven his perfect.

A hard pill to swallow for religious minds.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
He has given assurance to all by raising Him from the dead. Acts 17:30-31
@Unknown Soldier

Not to those who have not met Him to do His same will.
And of course in your mindset that excludes Paul whom you have judged to be a false brother.
They would if the church would be that person of Christ they are supposed to be.
Who is not willing that any should perish but that they get a change of heart and live. (2 Peter 3:9)
Describe converted?
Created in Christ Jesus; (Eph 2:10)
Converted to what?
Grace and peace from Jesus Christ who gave Himself for our sins to save us from the present corrupt age, according to the will of our God; Gal 1
Seek ye first the kingdom of God, dont seek what another says about Him.
Who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom; (2 Tim 4:1)
Not in Gods people, we are all the same in Him.
After faith has come, you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:25-29)
It is the religious sects who are at dispute about their gods...
Among the gods there is none like You, O Lord;
Nor are there any works like Your works. All nations whom You have made
Shall come and worship before You, O Lord, And shall glorify Your name. 86:8-9
Jesus was sent by God to show us what it is to have the same from God as he had from God.
Knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; Col 3:24
A person who is anointed of God is no different from the anointing Jesus had in our God. ...
Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the Lord Jesus Christ; Rom 13:12-14
 
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Gary Mac

Well-known member
He has given assurance to all by raising Him from the dead. Acts 17:30-31
Christ isn't risen from the dead at all least Christ is risen in you, you anointed of God. Most keep Christ in a grave waiting for a man to come as a god instead of receieveing Him this day, the One at your door knocking who will come to you and sup with you and be in you.

I would bet you are awaiting for him to come someday?
And of course in your mindset that excludes Paul whom you have judged to be a false brother.
Jesus needed no man teach him, nor do I, God is sufficient. Even Jesus confirmed that in that day I will ask him noting but go to the Father for myself and He did give to me just as He gave to Jesus.
Who is not willing that any should perish but that they get a change of heart and live. (2 Peter 3:9)
Ye live Gods anointed ;life and walk in it as He walks in it as Jesus did.
Created in Christ Jesus; (Eph 2:10)
And created in us all the very same as He did in Jesus. Same mind, Spirit, same way, same truth, and live His same life and as Jesus said no one come to the Father any other way than he did in the Father.
Grace and peace from Jesus Christ who gave Himself for our sins to save us from the present corrupt age, according to the will of our God; Gal 1
And Gods salvation is Him manifest in you as He was manifest in Jesus in Matt 3:16 and taught me the same way to and of the Father that he had from Him.
Who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom; (2 Tim 4:1)
You are your own judge. You know very well if you followed Jesus to receieve from the Father His salvation to be as He is and walk as He walks in His same light as Jesus did.

That judgment isn't up to God, He has laid out plainly what it is to be saved by Him to be as He is and in His same image, perfect as He is perfect. That judgment is your own. But to others who do have from God His perfections and that what Jesus had from Him it is easy to see who is like Him and who is of sin such as Pauls teachings.
After faith has come, you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:25-29)
it is about having His faith, His mind, His light, and yes and either one has His faith and walks in it with the same signs following or one doesnt.
Among the gods there is none like You, O Lord;
Amen, only one God who is Love and man is the temple of Him, anointed of Him and walk in that lave as He is in that Love.
Nor are there any works like Your works. All nations whom You have made
Shall come and worship before You, O Lord, And shall glorify Your name. 86:8-9
Yes all who He is made are like Him. We are in His same image, same mind.
Knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; Col 3:24
Yes an my inheritance was God Himself be my own disposition of Love.
Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the Lord Jesus Christ; Rom 13:12-14
Put on Gods anointing as Jesus did.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
Christ isn't risen from the dead at all least Christ is risen in you, you anointed of God.
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God
if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 1 Cor 15:14-19
Most keep Christ in a grave waiting for a man to come as a god instead of receieveing Him this day,
For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” 2 Cor 6:2
I would bet you are awaiting for him to come someday?
You've already bet all your corrupt wages that Paul was disqualified, why not give it a rest before you lose the house.

Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim the light of salvation to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.” Acts 26
You are your own judge. ...
judgment isn't up to God, e has laid out plainly what it is to be saved by Him to be as He is and in His same image, perfect as He is perfect. That judgment is your own.
The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son; John 5:22
Life and Judgment Are Through the Son
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24
 

Unknown Soldier

Active member
OK, so we are really saying the same thing, preaching/presenting the Gospel is (typically) the result of living it out/living the Christian faith before others (good works) ~PLUS~ the use of words to speak the Gospel to them...
Yes, but again I must emphasize timing. The "word preaching" should come after the "deed preaching." Why? As we both know some people preach a false Gospel and are false prophets. Those false prophets can get away with preaching their false Gospel if people believe their words quickly and don't wait to experience the power of the Holy Ghost. I think many unbelievers are aware of this preaching being devoid of power and remain skeptical for good reason. So when somebody like you or I come along word preaching, then unbelievers cannot distinguish us from those preaching a false Gospel! Those unbelievers might dismiss us immediately before the Holy Ghost has a chance to act.
IOW, it's not simply being so nice/good to people that they (somehow magically) choose to become believers on that basis alone.
I'm actually saying that our goodness should be miraculous rather than the conversions being miraculous.
Many believe that however, or they at least hope that it is true anyway, since they find actual witnessing to others so abhorrent (the itinerant preacher, St, Francis of Assai, has been falsely credited over the years as one who taught/believed that we should, "preach the Gospel daily, if necessary, use words", but there is nothing written by him, nor any "lifestyle" evidence, that he ever believed such a thing .. he is famous for preaching not simply to people, but to animals as well, which is something that we have historical confirmation of).
We're digressing, but many people and not just Catholics see St. Francis as a person who perhaps most closely lived the life of Christ. He was obviously sincere in his Christian walk being a "doer of the Word." His whole life was an apologetic his demonstrating that Christ's words can be made real in a person's life.
As theologian Ligon Duncan has said about this, "saying 'preach the Gospel daily, use words if necessary', is just like saying 'feed the poor daily, use food if necessary'" :)
I don't know about that. I'd say the "ultimate apologetic" is like feed the poor daily--tell them why if they ask.
 

Gary Mac

Well-known member
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
Yes we anointed of God, Christ in us.
And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God
if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 1 Cor 15:14-19
Christ -- Gods anointing -- is not risen at all least He is come to life in you where you become Gods anointed and that person of Christ who is risen from that dead state of religion.

The kingdom of God doesnt come with observation, it is within you. Luke 17;20-21. But not many actually believe Jesus in that.
For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” 2 Cor 6:2
In GHods day of salvation He comes to you and opens up who He is and all of His heaven in you just as He did in Jesus in Matt 3:16. There is no other salvation from God to be had.
You've already bet all your corrupt wages that Paul was disqualified, why not give it a rest before you lose the house.
Actually I gave all my corrupt wages over to God for Him to deal with. Why not do the faith and gain the house?

You sure are a negative soul!
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim the light of salvation to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.” Acts 26
As for me I stand before my father as Jesus did and obey Him in His ways. He really has the correct ideas.
The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son; John 5:22
Thats what I keep saying but you are not listening. Judgment is not Gods decision, He already has laid out His purpose in man, Judgemnt it your own and you know very well whether you are like Him or not as He puts within man.
Life and Judgment Are Through the Son
Yes and I am His son. You are supposed to be as well.
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24
Bingo, have the exact from God as Jesus had from Him. there is no other life to be had from God Himself.
 

JonHawk

Well-known member
Yes we anointed of God, Christ in us.
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit...1 Cor 1:21-22
You sure are a negative soul!
Therefore receive one another, just as Christ also received us, to the glory of God. Rom 15:7
Yes and I am His son. You are supposed to be as well.
As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 1 Peter 4:10
 

Unknown Soldier

Active member
Without doubt.
I'm glad to see that your faith amazes others who attribute your love to God.
Not to those who have not met Him to do His same will.
Take care not to blame unbelievers for doubting your deeds if those deeds look to be less than divine to them. They could be right, after all.
They would if the church would be that person of Christ they are supposed to be. But religious minds out for enterprise won't let it.
Yes, the church as I've said is badly in need of reform. I submit that purging sin from the church should be a high priority in that reformation.
Describe converted? Converted to what? What man tells you from their perspective or -- Ask God Himself to open who He is in you.
I've recently realized that I should accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I am now a follower of Christ.
Seek ye first the kingdom of God, dont seek what another says about Him.
If I shouldn't seek what another says about God, then I shouldn't seek what you just said about God which means I should seek what another says about God! In other words, it's logically impossible for me to take your advice here.
Not in Gods people, we are all the same in Him. It is the religious sects who are at dispute about their gods and argue about them.
But Paul fought with Peter--are Paul and Peter then not God's people?
Jesus was sent by God to show us what it is to have the same from God as he had from God.
That's correct, and we can and should have the sinlessness from God that Jesus had from God. Jesus lived a sinless life to prove we can live sinless lives too.
A person who is anointed of God is no different from the anointing Jesus had in our God. Same signs follow us. Perfect even as our Father in heaven his perfect.

A hard pill to swallow for religious minds.
If we so live, then doing so is the "ultimate apologetic." Actions trump words every time, and unbelievers know that.
 
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