The universe is natural, it can't be down to chance. Or can it?

I think i have made the point that if the universe is natural, it can't be down to chance.

chance: the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design

If the universe can't be down to "the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design"...

Then the universe must include obvious design.

To be honest, I am surprised...

But I am glad that atheists agree with me that the universe can't be down to chance.
 
chance: the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design

If the universe can't be down to "the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design"...

Then the universe must include obvious design.

To be honest, I am surprised...

But I am glad that atheists agree with me that the universe can't be down to chance.
Athests don't.
 

Whateverman

Active member
I am glad that atheists agree with me that the universe can't be down to chance.
As an atheist, I wouldn't say "can't".

I'd say there's probably a reason for the universe's existence, but whether it's accidental or willful or casual, I simply don't know. I suspect it wasn't an "accident", but there's a lot of territory between "not accidental" and "created"...
 

Furion

Member
Hmm, ok. By that definition of chance, I agree. There are other ways of looking at the word chance though, such as accidental. my point is, if the universe is natural, it can't be accidental, but rather, necessary.
But that does not lead to necessity. That only leads to reality, we exist. Accidental is unexpected, as if by chance.

What do you claim the difference is, why does accidental change things for you, and why do we spend so much time studying the design of the universe?

Everywhere we look we see order, design, ordered processes, predictable, a cornerstone of design is predictive order. We utilize the design, by science we exploit the order of the universe, thus allowing us to create more order, and communicate virtually instantly, all over the earth. Order, design, laws, physics, and kitties. It's not by chance.
 
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Nouveau

Active member
Everywhere we look we see order, design...
I see order but little design. Also, for design to be something you observe rather than presuppose, you'd have to know what an absence of design would look like - and according to Christian theism, everything is designed - so you have no baseline for comparison.
 

Whatsisface

Active member
But that does not lead to necessity. That only leads to reality, we exist. Accidental is unexpected, as if by chance.

What do you claim the difference is, why does accidental change things for you, and why do we spend so much time studying the design of the universe?
Good questions. If the universe is natural, it's absurd to think of it as an accident, or fluke happening. It could only opperate according to it's properties, and as it's here, it's here according to said properties, not by chance.
Everywhere we look we see order, design, ordered processes, predictable, a cornerstone of design is predictive order. We utilize the design, by science we exploit the order of the universe, thus allowing us to create more order, and communicate virtually instantly, all over the earth. Order, design, laws, physics, and kitties. It's not by chance.
Again, to use the word chance to describe a natural universe is not right.

As Nouveau said, we certainly see order, whether it's designed or not is less clear. There are lots of examples of poor "design" that you would expect in a natural universe, but not in universe designed by an omnipotent being. In some ways, marvellous though we are, we are poorly designed. We keep going wrong, our eyes are not the best etc.
 
There are lots of examples of poor "design" that you would expect in a natural universe, but not in universe designed by an omnipotent being.

Puts me in mind of a guy who buys a used Rolls Royce, which has been driven tens of thousands of miles without an oil change or a tuneup or a lube job and then left for years to rust alone and who then takes it for a spin, only to hear some sputtering and to experience some stalling out, and who then whines about its "poor design."
 
chance: the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design
I'm not sure if this is the right question. I do not wonder if the universe was created by chance or design. I ask, "how did the universe begin?"

Right now the answer to that, based on the empirical evidence we have today, is, "we do not know."

The Big Bang Theory and Inflation Theory explain how the universe expanded after it began. We can take what we observe today and work backwards in time to see how the universe expanded. Using mathematics we can see how it all started to expand - but we cannot see beyond that. Our current model is accurate all the way back to 10-33 seconds after the universe began. But if you push the math past that to the actual start of the universe the math all breaks.

So did the universe start by chance? By design? By some other method humans cannot even comprehend? Sure - maybe. Who knows?

All we know is that Inflation and The Big Bang are the best explanation for how the universe expanded given what we know today. And we do not have good empirical evidence for how it all began before the inflation. But we may find it today - and that evidence may prove that God created the universe before The Big Bang expansion started. That is what many Christians believe. We have to wait and see.

Anyhoo, that's just how I look at it :)
 

Whatsisface

Active member
Puts me in mind of a guy who buys a used Rolls Royce, which has been driven tens of thousands of miles without an oil change or a tuneup or a lube job and then left for years to rust alone and who then takes it for a spin, only to hear some sputtering and to experience some stalling out, and who then whines about its "poor design."
Someone could really look after themselves and still catch a dreadfull disease or get cancer.
 

Mr Laurier

Active member
chance: the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design

If the universe can't be down to "the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design"...

Then the universe must include obvious design.

To be honest, I am surprised...

But I am glad that atheists agree with me that the universe can't be down to chance.
Ummm. You are resorting to a false dichotomy.
Its not (chance vs design)
Its (non-random processes acting under non-random forces that obey non-random laws of nature)
 
Ummm. You are resorting to a false dichotomy.
Its not (chance vs design)
Its (non-random processes acting under non-random forces that obey non-random laws of nature)

Actually it is "random chance" vs "NOT random chance".

Either the universe came into existence BY random chance... WITHOUT conscious decision and WITHOUT any obvious design.

Or the universe came into existence NOT by random chance... WITH conscious decision and WITH obvious design.

random: made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision

chance: the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design


Since you say the laws of nature are NON-random (and random means WITHOUT conscious decision)...

Then that means the laws of nature were made WITH conscious decision.

So WHO made the non-random laws of nature by conscious decision?
 
They are random with respect to fitness, but not random with respect to the laws of nature.

It seems that you believe there is VERY LITTLE that is random, since you would say EVERYTHING abides by the laws of nature.

Correct?

If that is so, then that would mean there is VERY LITTLE that is WITHOUT "conscious decision".

In other words... MOST EVERYTHING is because of conscious decision.


random: made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision

Note: Since you say nothing is without method (the laws of nature), that only leaves random to be without conscious decision.
 

Nouveau

Active member
It seems that you believe there is VERY LITTLE that is random, since you would say EVERYTHING abides by the laws of nature.

Correct?

If that is so, then that would mean there is VERY LITTLE that is WITHOUT "conscious decision".

In other words... MOST EVERYTHING is because of conscious decision.


random: made, done, happening, or chosen without method or conscious decision

Note: Since you say nothing is without method (the laws of nature), that only leaves random to be without conscious decision.
No, by 'random' I mean there are no law-like correlations to be found. Randomness is therefore relative to a given context.
 
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