The universe is natural, it can't be down to chance. Or can it?

Whatsisface

Well-known member
The Wintersmith. Terry Pratchett knew a thing or two about reifying apparent design.
Thanks. I've not read that one, but just looked it up. Sounds interesting. I've just finished Men at Arms, where the gonne corrupts people with it's power.
 

Temujin

Well-known member
Thanks. I've not read that one, but just looked it up. Sounds interesting. I've just finished Men at Arms, where the gonne corrupts people with it's power.
If you are new to Pratchett, you are in for a treat. His later novels are very good indeed. The characters in Men at Arms develop and deepen, while he addresses some profound issues. They are best read, in my opinion, in order based on the dominant character. I wouldn't read Wintersmith before the Wee Free Men, then the Hat full of Sky. I have every book, and have reread all of them several times. I envy you.

My favourite, the Night Watch.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
If you are new to Pratchett, you are in for a treat. His later novels are very good indeed. The characters in Men at Arms develop and deepen, while he addresses some profound issues. They are best read, in my opinion, in order based on the dominant character. I wouldn't read Wintersmith before the Wee Free Men, then the Hat full of Sky. I have every book, and have reread all of them several times. I envy you.

My favourite, the Night Watch.
Thanks.
 

Furion

Well-known member
A natural design is not a conscious design, which is how we are using the word design.

You have no idea whether it is a conscious design or not, it is your presuppositions showing.

To answer, because we have two possibilities, the universe is natural or consciously designed.

The universe declares design, from the galactic to the subatomic, it is a design.

If I am to be rational, i should apportion my beliefs to the evidence, and here is the key point for me, I see very poor evidence that the universe is consciously designed.

It seems to me, that those who see the universe as consciously designed look at the universe and think, wow, what an amazingly complex thing, it can only be consciously designed. If so, that's not evidence, it's an argument from personal incredulity.

It's cute you insert conscious into the equation. See, even your mind goes there, knowing you ponder the design but have to reject it because the alternative is upsetting to you.

Some design, right?

Does it bother you that it should have a different design.

I do note the impression you are not impressed not marvel at the design.

And that is ok, others marvel at it.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
You have no idea whether it is a conscious design or not, it is your presuppositions showing.
A knife that cuts both ways. You have so far not given any evidence to show it is designed.
The universe declares design, from the galactic to the subatomic, it is a design.
What does this mean? What is it about the universe that you think declares it's design?
It's cute you insert conscious into the equation. See, even your mind goes there, knowing you ponder the design but have to reject it because the alternative is upsetting to you.
But is that not what you think, that the universe was consciously designed? That was what I was replying to, ie, what you think.
Does it bother you that it should have a different design.

I do note the impression you are not impressed not marvel at the design.

And that is ok, others marvel at it.
I marvel at the universe, but I want evidence that it is designed, and you haven't fully explained why you think it is.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
The universe declares design, from the galactic to the subatomic, it is a design.
This claim needs to be supported. How do you know it to be true? Is this a priori or an empirical claim?

If the former, then you need to give an a priori argument from logic and reason for why order must be the product of design.

If the latter, then you need to explain what experience you have had of undesigned things to be able to distinguish design from non-design, and to know what degree of order an absence of design might produce.
 

Furion

Well-known member
A knife that cuts both ways. You have so far not given any evidence to show it is designed.

Your brain switches the subject, doesn't it. You read and keep going on with your same thought, is it?

You can keep thinking otherwise, I've told you already but that won't stop you. It is a design.

What does this mean? What is it about the universe that you think declares it's design?

But is that not what you think, that the universe was consciously designed? That was what I was replying to, ie, what you think.

You've already said it, you claim it natural design. I simply remove the word natural. It is a design.

I marvel at the universe, but I want evidence that it is designed, and you haven't fully explained why you think it is.

I am still toying with your inexplicable thought of order without design.

I am standing on firm ground, and you want me to claim there is a designer to the design. I have no reason to do it.

I watch you squirm trying to claim it is not a design.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Your brain switches the subject, doesn't it. You read and keep going on with your same thought, is it?

You can keep thinking otherwise, I've told you already but that won't stop you. It is a design.
To be clear, by design I mean, and i think you mean, consciously arranged so. I do not see the universe as consciously arranged as it is because I see no evidence of such. A logical possibility is, that it is the only way it can be,
You've already said it, you claim it natural design. I simply remove the word natural. It is a design.
Again, if by design you mean consciously arranged, I do not think it is. If you mean by design, it all fits and works but without the conscious arranger, then that's not a way I would use the word design.
I am still toying with your inexplicable thought of order without design.
You haven't said why order always entails design.
I am standing on firm ground, and you want me to claim there is a designer to the design. I have no reason to do it.
What? Aren't you thinking that God is the designer?
I watch you squirm trying to claim it is not a design.
If you start being rude I'll just be rude back and then it's the same old same old that gets nowhere.
 

Furion

Well-known member
To be clear, by design I mean, and i think you mean, consciously arranged so. I do not see the universe as consciously arranged as it is because I see no evidence of such. A logical possibility is, that it is the only way it can be,

Again, if by design you mean consciously arranged, I do not think it is. If you mean by design, it all fits and works but without the conscious arranger, then that's not a way I would use the word design.

It is arranged, it is a design.

You keep telling me how you oppose an arranger, why you keep repeating it I don't know.

You haven't said why order always entails design.

What? Aren't you thinking that God is the designer?

If you start being rude I'll just be rude back and then it's the same old same old that gets nowhere.

You already are being rude.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
It is arranged, it is a design.
How do you know?
You keep telling me how you oppose an arranger, why you keep repeating it I don't know.
It's not so much I oppose an arranger, it's that I haven't been given a reason to think there is one.
You already are being rude.
Here's what you said...
...I watch you squirm trying to claim it is not a design.
....I have said nothing like this to you.

If you mean I'm being rude because i'm disagreeing with you, then maybe a discussion forum isn't for you?
 

Furion

Well-known member
How do you know?

In the same way you claim to see "order."

It's not so much I oppose an arranger, it's that I haven't been given a reason to think there is one.

Here's what you said...

....I have said nothing like this to you.

If you mean I'm being rude because i'm disagreeing with you, then maybe a discussion forum isn't for you?

You are transparent, I'm not worried you cannot come to grips with your passive aggressive nature.

So far you've not given me any reason to think there is no arranger, just trial baloons of accidently ordered chance.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
In the same way you claim to see "order."
I see order by direct observation. It's now possible to see water molecules, and they all look the same, which is order.

Can you directly observe a creator in the same way?
You are transparent, I'm not worried you cannot come to grips with your passive aggressive nature.
Please quote where you think I've been passive aggressive, and importantly, explain why you think so.
So far you've not given me any reason to think there is no arranger, just trial baloons of accidently ordered chance.
I've also not give you reason to think there's a race of teddy bear like creatures living on the moons of Mars. Are you going to believe there are because of it?

The point is, we believe something true when we can demonstrate it's true, not when we can't give evidence it's false.

You haven't given any reason or evidence that there is an arranger.
 

Furion

Well-known member
I see order by direct observation. It's now possible to see water molecules, and they all look the same, which is order.

Goodness, just write it down and you have a design.

In fact I would recommend you write it down, that way your understanding of the design can make you useful.

Can you directly observe a creator in the same way?

I bought the ticket on StubHub to watch the Lord say "Let there be light"

I was late to the event.

Please quote where you think I've been passive aggressive, and importantly, explain why you think so.

I've also not give you reason to think there's a race of teddy bear like creatures living on the moons of Mars. Are you going to believe there are because of it?

The point is, we believe something true when we can demonstrate it's true, not when we can't give evidence it's false.

You haven't given any reason or evidence that there is an arranger.

There is no point but you trying to drive the conversation to a designer, it's like knee jerk to you.

But if you insist.

Since you cannot grasp the design of the universe, I would say you couldn't grasp the designer either.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Hey Noveau,

Is there a threshold of order past which design can be reasonably inferred, at minimum as a better explanation?
I don't think it is a matter of there being a threshold, or a degree of order that indicates design, but rather a matter of background knowledge, experience, and context.
 
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