The universe is natural, it can't be down to chance. Or can it?

Nouveau

Well-known member
Sorry to hear that, but supposing one had, would that present a threshold of order where we could infer some form of design as a better explanation?
No, again it would be a matter of background knowledge, experience, and context.
 

Five Solas

Active member
No, again it would be a matter of background knowledge, experience, and context.
Well, okay, but doesn't a lottery, certeris paribus, provide us with background knowledge, experience, and context? One win doesn't do it. Two may or may not. But three? Seems like a threshold to me.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Well, okay, but doesn't a lottery, certeris paribus, provide us with background knowledge, experience, and context? One win doesn't do it. Two may or may not. But three? Seems like a threshold to me.
For the third time, no, I don't think it is a matter of there being a threshold. In the case of lotteries we do indeed have background knowledge and experience regarding the role of design in such matters. It also requires one to be able to draw a contrast between the odds of a given result with vs without conscious design involved, which is impossible for the Christian who believes that everything is a product of design.
 

Five Solas

Active member
For the third time, no, I don't think it is a matter of there being a threshold. In the case of lotteries we do indeed have background knowledge and experience regarding the role of design in such matters. It also requires one to be able to draw a contrast between the odds of a given result with vs without conscious design involved, which is impossible for the Christian who believes that everything is a product of design.
Repeating oneself does not make one any more correct, or wrong for that matter. Regardless, it is not an accurate account of Christian doctrine to characterize everything as a product of design, as you have above. I have just as much access to natural process as you do, without denying Christianity. In fact, arguably more.
 

5wize

Well-known member
Hey Noveau,

Is there a threshold of order past which design can be reasonably inferred, at minimum as a better explanation?
That's a good question. We know the difference between that which forms naturally and that which is created. We only have examples of humans and some other high order animals actually "creating" something by design, such as a tool, a method, or a piece of art, from our common definition of create. We only see forms of biology with biological brains perform these acts of creation by design.

If somehow we could see the wall that distinguishes things created of sentient will from things formed from natural systems collapse we could infer something like that. Can you give reasons why this definitional wall is not real?
 

Five Solas

Active member
That's a good question. We know the difference between that which forms naturally and that which is created. We only have examples of humans and some other high order animals actually "creating" something by design, such as a tool, a method, or a piece of art, from our common definition of create. We only see forms of biology with biological brains perform these acts of creation by design.

If somehow we could see the wall that distinguishes things created of sentient will from things formed from natural systems collapse we could infer something like that. Can you give reasons why this definitional wall is not real?
Nope I cannot, 5wize. It's why I'm asking on this thread, not professing :) Thanks.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Repeating oneself does not make one any more correct, or wrong for that matter. Regardless, it is not an accurate account of Christian doctrine to characterize everything as a product of design, as you have above. I have just as much access to natural process as you do, without denying Christianity. In fact, arguably more.
Can you name something that is not the product of God's conscious design?

As atheists we can distinguish between nature and design, but Christians claim nature to also be the product of God's conscious design.
 

Five Solas

Active member
Can you name something that is not the product of God's conscious design?

As atheists we can distinguish between nature and design, but Christians claim nature to also be the product of God's conscious design.
Well, you are correct in that I as well would claim the natural world to be the product of God's conscious design, and initially in creation, but that does not wed me to a denial of secondary causation under that heading. He didn't directly create my stomach, for instance. Or hurricane delta. Or countless other things.
 

Nouveau

Well-known member
Well, you are correct in that I as well would claim the natural world to be the product of God's conscious design, and initially in creation, but that does not wed me to a denial of secondary causation under that heading. He didn't directly create my stomach, for instance. Or hurricane delta. Or countless other things.
Are you willing to describe any of these things as not being the product of God's conscious design?

With humans we can distinguish between what they have directly designed and the unintended future consequences of that design, but in God's case there can be no such distinction, as His omniscience means he will know of all such consequences in advance. The only plausible exception would be the results of human free will, but that doesn't exactly give you something free of conscious design to use as a basis for comparison.
 

Five Solas

Active member
Are you willing to describe any of these things as not being the product of God's conscious design?

With humans we can distinguish between what they have directly designed and the unintended future consequences of that design, but in God's case there can be no such distinction, as His omniscience means he will know of all such consequences in advance. The only plausible exception would be the results of human free will, but that doesn't exactly give you something free of conscious design to use as a basis for comparison.
I agree with all of this, given my clarifications above. Would not resort to the free will exception either.
 

Mr Laurier

Well-known member
Look at a gravel beach. See how the stones are sorted according to size. Who did this?
Nobody.
The waves sort the gravel, with no conscious thought.
 

Whatsisface

Well-known member
Goodness, just write it down and you have a design.

In fact I would recommend you write it down, that way your understanding of the design can make you useful.
I asked if you could see a creator in the same way I can see order, you haven't answered that question. In fact you've just dodged it, lesser.
There is no point but you trying to drive the conversation to a designer, it's like knee jerk to you
But if you insist.

Since you cannot grasp the design of the universe, I would say you couldn't grasp the designer either.
Still being as vague as usual. I wonder why?
 
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