The unpardonable sin and TULIP

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Rev Do you believe the righteousness of God is credited to the account Christ died for before they become believers and while unregenerate dead in sins ?
We first and forevermore have the Righteousness of God when we're Justified through Faith in Christ Temporarily. Unconditional Election doesn't Justify us...
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
We first and forevermore have the Righteousness of God when we're Justified through Faith in Christ Temporarily. Unconditional Election doesn't Justify us...
So Rev you dont believe Christs death alone, apart from the doing of the sinner [faith, repentance], caused God to credit to the account righteousness, to them He suffered and died for ?
 

Our Lord's God

Well-known member
Who can commit the unpardonable sin; the elect, non-elect, or both? I presume everyone would argue that only the non-elect can commit it.

If this is the case, why does Christ speak of an unpardonable sin at all? Every sin that a non-elect person commits is, in truth, unpardonable. How could God forgive a sin which Christ has not atoned for?

In Calvinism, there really is no point whatsoever in this teaching of Jesus. Jesus is talking about a particular KIND of sin. In Calvinism, all the "elect's" sins are forgiven and all the non-elect's sins will not be forgiven. Committing a particular KIND of sin has no relevance in Calvinism since it only matters whether one is "elect" or not. If one is "elect" all sins will be forgiven. If one is not "elect" none of their sins are forgiven and committing a particular kind of sin has no relevance to it.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
sg

Who can commit the unpardonable sin; the elect, non-elect, or both? I presume everyone would argue that only the non-elect can commit it.

If this is the case, why does Christ speak of an unpardonable sin at all? Every sin that a non-elect person commits is, in truth, unpardonable. How could God forgive a sin which Christ has not atoned for?

Another possibility is that Christ is speaking of a National Sin that only Israel as a Nation could committ at that time. That nation had been favored with much light, even the very Son of God living among them and doing so many miraculous works that verified His Messiahship, and how even these things He did by the Holy Spirit among them, and they in turned attributed to Him being a beelzebub devil. Some say thats the sin against the Spirit, and Israel as a Nation is unforgiven, though of course there will be some jews saved according to the election of Grace. Im not dogmatic about it.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
So Rev you dont believe Christs death alone, apart from the doing of the sinner [faith, repentance], caused God to credit to the account righteousness, to them He suffered and died for ?
If Christ is not risen, we are most pitiful. Faith Alone is Justification...
 

armylngst

Well-known member
army


Im not sure thats accurate to say Jesus propitiated all sin but not expiate all sin. Can you please go into a little more detail explaining that?
Penal substitutionary atonement. I thought I was clear on that already. Jesus took our place in His death. Our sin was placed on Him, and His righteousness was placed on us. He didn't pick and choose. It was all or nothing.
 

armylngst

Well-known member
Years spent on CARM Forums has a lot to do with my writing skills; you ought to hear me speak in Redneck-ese though. Read my stuff again, but with the voice of Jeff Foxworthy in your head. Also, Southerners have a way of 'picturesque' speaking; like the imagery that Country Musical Lyrics envoke...

When a Born Again Saint sins, the Wrath of God for it falls on Christ and him Crucified; never on us. We always have the Righteousness of God credited to our account. I will write a Gospel Tract this weekend about Federal Headship and Penal Substitutionary Atonement...
I would say the sin falls on us to confess via 1 John 1:9, but we stand righteous because of Jesus and His death on the cross. I always saw it as our sin darkens our relationship with God, but, if we are saved, it does not end our relationship with God. The penalty for our sin was placed on Jesus, while His righteousness was placed upon us. Our sin, as believers, only affects our relationship with God. (He may stop talking to us until we deal with it, for instance.) I was a Baptist, so I am not saying He literally talks to us, but when we seek Him, He may be silent until we deal with our sin.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Penal substitutionary atonement. I thought I was clear on that already. Jesus took our place in His death. Our sin was placed on Him, and His righteousness was placed on us. He didn't pick and choose. It was all or nothing.
So how does this statement tell me the difference you say, between Jesus propitiating all sin, but not expiating all sin. Give details
 

armylngst

Well-known member
So how does this statement tell me the difference you say, between Jesus propitiating all sin, but not expiating all sin. Give details
It doesn't even take expiation into account. All sin is forgiven by Christ. Why do you think we believe that a believer cannot commit the unpardonable sin? If they did, and they can't be pardoned, then they can't be saved, and were never saved in the first place. None of their sins were forgiven.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
army
Our sin, as believers, only affects our relationship with God.

I see it differently, I dont think affects the believers relationship with God, thats through Christ alone, but it certainly affects the believers fellowship with God. David when contemplating his horrible sin or sins said Ps 51 12

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Joy is part of fellowship with God Rom 5 13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

1 Jn 1 4
And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
It doesn't even take expiation into account. All sin is forgiven by Christ. Why do you think we believe that a believer cannot commit the unpardonable sin? If they did, and they can't be pardoned, then they can't be saved, and were never saved in the first place. None of their sins were forgiven.
That doesn't explain it. Expiation is connected to propitiation they are practically synonyms.
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
I don’t put much confidence in that distinction, but since you do; the text says that God is unwilling to forgive this particular sin.

“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.” (Matt. 12:31-32)
Thank you for another great topic
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
You are dodging the dilemma demonstrated by the OP, and not addressing it. That can only mean that you don't have a proper response to give, and so you are trying to rescue your Calvinistic theology by any means possible by turning a blind eye to the OP. Not a very promising defense of Calvinism.
Yes I can see that so thank you
 

David1701

Well-known member
Who can commit the unpardonable sin; the elect, non-elect, or both? I presume everyone would argue that only the non-elect can commit it.

If this is the case, why does Christ speak of an unpardonable sin at all? Every sin that a non-elect person commits is, in truth, unpardonable. How could God forgive a sin which Christ has not atoned for?
Every sin that a reprobate commits remains unpardoned; however, the unpardonable sin is not merely unpardoned, it is unpardonable, because of its nature. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is in a special category of one - the only kind of sin for which Jesus did not die.
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Every sin that a reprobate commits remains unpardoned; however, the unpardonable sin is not merely unpardoned, it is unpardonable, because of its nature. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is in a special category of one - the only kind of sin for which Jesus did not die.
And how can that sin be committed today if Jesus is not walking this earth performing miracles.
 

David1701

Well-known member
And how can that sin be committed today if Jesus is not walking this earth performing miracles.
Jesus is here, by the Holy Spirit who indwells us (Christ in you, the hope of glory). Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to demons or the devil. Cessationists sometimes come very close to committing this sin nowadays (and some might step over the mark and actually commit it).
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
Jesus is here, by the Holy Spirit who indwells us (Christ in you, the hope of glory). Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to demons or the devil. Cessationists sometimes come very close to committing this sin nowadays (and some might step over the mark and actually commit it).
No it’s seeing Jesus in the flesh perform miracles and saying they are being performed by beelzebub .
 

Johnnybgood

Well-known member
From got questions below



Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has to do with accusing Jesus Christ of being demon-possessed instead of Spirit-filled. This particular type of blasphemy cannot be duplicated today. The Pharisees were in a unique moment in history: they had the Law and the Prophets, they had the Holy Spirit stirring their hearts, they had the Son of God Himself standing right in front of them, and they saw with their own eyes the miracles He did. Never before in the history of the world (and never since) had so much divine light been granted to men; if anyone should have recognized Jesus for who He was, it was the Pharisees. Yet they chose defiance. They purposely attributed the work of the Spirit to the devil, even though they knew the truth and had the proof. Jesus declared their willful blindness to be unpardonable. Their blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was their final rejection of God’s grace. They had set their course, and God was going to let them sail into perdition unhindered.

Jesus told the crowd that the Pharisees’ blasphemy against the Holy Spirit “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matthew 12:32). This is another way of saying that their sin would never be forgiven, ever. Not now, not in eternity. As Mark 3:29 puts it, “They are guilty of an eternal sin.”

The immediate result of the Pharisees’ public rejection of Christ (and God’s rejection of them) is seen in the next chapter. Jesus, for the first time, “told them many things in parables” (Matthew 13:3; cf. Mark 4:2). The disciples were puzzled at Jesus’ change of teaching method, and Jesus explained His use of parables: “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. . . . Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand” (Matthew 13:11, 13). Jesus began to veil the truth with parables and metaphors as a direct result of the Jewish leaders’ official denunciation of Him.

Again, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be repeated today, although some people try. Jesus Christ is not on earth—He is seated at the right hand of God. No one can personally witness Jesus performing a miracle and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Spirit

 
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