ReverendRV
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We first and forevermore have the Righteousness of God when we're Justified through Faith in Christ Temporarily. Unconditional Election doesn't Justify us...
The unpardonable sin and TULIP
- Thread starter squirrelyguy
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brightfame52
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So Rev you dont believe Christs death alone, apart from the doing of the sinner [faith, repentance], caused God to credit to the account righteousness, to them He suffered and died for ?
Our Lord's God
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In Calvinism, there really is no point whatsoever in this teaching of Jesus. Jesus is talking about a particular KIND of sin. In Calvinism, all the "elect's" sins are forgiven and all the non-elect's sins will not be forgiven. Committing a particular KIND of sin has no relevance in Calvinism since it only matters whether one is "elect" or not. If one is "elect" all sins will be forgiven. If one is not "elect" none of their sins are forgiven and committing a particular kind of sin has no relevance to it.
brightfame52
Well-known member
sg
Another possibility is that Christ is speaking of a National Sin that only Israel as a Nation could committ at that time. That nation had been favored with much light, even the very Son of God living among them and doing so many miraculous works that verified His Messiahship, and how even these things He did by the Holy Spirit among them, and they in turned attributed to Him being a beelzebub devil. Some say thats the sin against the Spirit, and Israel as a Nation is unforgiven, though of course there will be some jews saved according to the election of Grace. Im not dogmatic about it.
Another possibility is that Christ is speaking of a National Sin that only Israel as a Nation could committ at that time. That nation had been favored with much light, even the very Son of God living among them and doing so many miraculous works that verified His Messiahship, and how even these things He did by the Holy Spirit among them, and they in turned attributed to Him being a beelzebub devil. Some say thats the sin against the Spirit, and Israel as a Nation is unforgiven, though of course there will be some jews saved according to the election of Grace. Im not dogmatic about it.
ReverendRV
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If Christ is not risen, we are most pitiful. Faith Alone is Justification...
brightfame52
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Christs resurrection declares those He died for Justified rev Rom 4:25
25 who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.
Penal substitutionary atonement. I thought I was clear on that already. Jesus took our place in His death. Our sin was placed on Him, and His righteousness was placed on us. He didn't pick and choose. It was all or nothing.
I would say the sin falls on us to confess via 1 John 1:9, but we stand righteous because of Jesus and His death on the cross. I always saw it as our sin darkens our relationship with God, but, if we are saved, it does not end our relationship with God. The penalty for our sin was placed on Jesus, while His righteousness was placed upon us. Our sin, as believers, only affects our relationship with God. (He may stop talking to us until we deal with it, for instance.) I was a Baptist, so I am not saying He literally talks to us, but when we seek Him, He may be silent until we deal with our sin.
brightfame52
Well-known member
So how does this statement tell me the difference you say, between Jesus propitiating all sin, but not expiating all sin. Give details
It doesn't even take expiation into account. All sin is forgiven by Christ. Why do you think we believe that a believer cannot commit the unpardonable sin? If they did, and they can't be pardoned, then they can't be saved, and were never saved in the first place. None of their sins were forgiven.
brightfame52
Well-known member
army
I see it differently, I dont think affects the believers relationship with God, thats through Christ alone, but it certainly affects the believers fellowship with God. David when contemplating his horrible sin or sins said Ps 51 12
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Joy is part of fellowship with God Rom 5 13
Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
1 Jn 1 4
And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
I see it differently, I dont think affects the believers relationship with God, thats through Christ alone, but it certainly affects the believers fellowship with God. David when contemplating his horrible sin or sins said Ps 51 12
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Joy is part of fellowship with God Rom 5 13
Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
1 Jn 1 4
And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
That doesn't explain it. Expiation is connected to propitiation they are practically synonyms.
David1701
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Every sin that a reprobate commits remains unpardoned; however, the unpardonable sin is not merely unpardoned, it is unpardonable, because of its nature. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is in a special category of one - the only kind of sin for which Jesus did not die.
David1701
Well-known member
Jesus is here, by the Holy Spirit who indwells us (Christ in you, the hope of glory). Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to demons or the devil. Cessationists sometimes come very close to committing this sin nowadays (and some might step over the mark and actually commit it).
David1701
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The blasphemy is against the Holy Spirit, not against Jesus.
David1701
Well-known member
Stubbornness...
It is not blasphemy against Jesus that is unforgiveable, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit; Jesus said so himself.
Matt. 12:32 (LITV) And whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, not in this age nor in the coming one .
It is seeing Jesus performing miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit, and claiming that this Holy Spirit by whom Jesus is performing miracles, is Beezelbub. And yes, it is true that this sin, as recorded cannot be committed today. However, there are those who say that to die in one's sin, after seeing the testimony of the Holy Spirit, is akin to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, because the denial of His work is akin to saying the Holy Spirit is evil, I will not accept. So, those who die in their sins, can never be forgiven, because they have, in essence, committed the unpardonable sin.
Your welcome. It is a very difficult thing to understand, and support, but the new view makes some crazy rational sense. I do, however, believe in the end times, that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is going to be real, in that worshiping the beast, and his image, and taking his mark, seals the soul forever in hell, and taking the mark in that condition, being a blasphemous opposite to the sealing of the Holy Spirit, makes this the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, so that Revelation states that they will all, every last one, find their place in hell. (In this case, the lake of fire)
David1701
Well-known member
Blasphemy means "injurious speech". Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is injurious speech against the Holy Spirit, especially attributing his work to demons or the devil. This could be committed nowadays, e.g. by attributing gifts of the Holy Spirit to the devil.
Except that Jesus explained exactly what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was at that time, and what you said isn't it. You do realize that many Christians have stumbled at the point of believing that the idle thought that would fit the definition that came through their mind when they read this passage for the first time ended all hope of salvation? Then they sought out guidance, and someone mercifully took the time to explain to them what the passage actually meant. Imagine all the damage the devil could bring if your simple understanding of the passage was true. How many believers would be shut out of heaven because of you misunderstanding the passage. Thank goodness you aren't the final authority. Jesus was not exercising gifts of the Holy Spirit when the religious leaders claimed that the power of the Holy Spirit Himself (not gifts) was actually the power of Beezelbub. As such, no, it is not possible to commit this sin today. None of us can call ourselves Jesus, and none of us can claim to perform miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit as Jesus did. Look at the disciples. They couldn't cast out a demon. What did Jesus tell them? That this demon could only possibly come out through much prayer and fasting to God. Jesus didn't pray at all, He just cast out the demon. Huge difference. There was a group of translators who went around recording people speaking in tongues in services. Now the reason Paul calls it tongues is because they are known languages (plural). Babbling, no matter what one is babbling is what Paul is talking about when he says tongue int eh singular, of which he has nothing good to say. The results of their experiment is that they found that way less then 10% (a lot less) were actual languages, and in the cases where they were languages, in the vast majority of cases, they were cursing God in a foreign language.
David1701
Well-known member
Jesus said that attributing works of the Holy Spirit to Beelzebub is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That is what I posted.
An idle thought, a mistake, a misunderstanding, parroting someone else's opinion, etc. are not what is meant by blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. What is meant is seeing what is clearly of the Holy Spirit and, with a wicked, hard-hearted unbelief, attributing it to the devil.